Annealing vs not?

[vancewalker007]

I personally believe there is no more powerful ballistic attribute than accuracy.
But case life, and barrel life, can be significant to viable accuracy in the long run (for many).
Constant trimming and replacement of cases with lot to lot differences doesn't help.
Taking guns out of service for barrel changes never helps.

I was just stating what annealing means to me, not that it should mean that to everyone. It was a just to provide an additional perspective to the issue. I usually get 6-9 reloads from my cases so they get used a lot. And again I lose cases to loose primer pockets primarily because I'm usually loading in the upper velocity node on everything. I have been surprised that I'm getting 9 and sometimes more out of my 6.5 PRC. My father loads his 22BR. 6mm Rem, and 223s at lower pressures and I don't think he's every tossed a case. He usually anneals about every 2 shots.

 

[MagnumManiac]

You couldn't get away with it for a 300wm.
The cartridge has to be well improved and a smaller/efficient capacity for cal.
You need enough breech support, as provided by enough barrel steel around the chamber, and coned bolt.
In 30cal this would maybe be a 30saum AI, with biggest barrel tenon practical (custom action).

Fitted, is ~1/2thou total clearance EVERYWHERE for NEW cases.
With this, the cases form to spring back from chamber with no sizing needed for reloading*.
So no trimming or annealing either. Just re-prime, charge, seat bullets & go.

*Shoulders should be at least 40deg to mitigate the need for bumping.
I went 35deg, and by the 12th reload cycle my headspace was getting tight. Bad because once you bump, you're stuck with that action going forward (memory).
I'm going to try 45deg shoulders for my next chamber.
Also, some length of neck sizing may be desired for tuning. This works even as fitted with slight mandrel & bushing sizing (less than work hardening).

It's interesting you talk about shoulder angle. When I designed my 338-416 Rigby Improved using the RCBS design program, it had parameters for case taper, shoulder angle and neck length with minimum dimensions allowed.
I changed them by 5, so .010" became .005" taper per inch.
When setting shoulder angle, with other parameters already set, it spat out either a 40 or 45 degree shoulder.
The original Rigby and 505 Gibbs have 45, so that's what I went with...glad I did because it really works.
Have found 35-45 to be the sweet spot for all cartridges I like to 'improve', except the Weatherby's, I leave them as is.
I think you will find even more efficiency going to 45 degrees, it holds the powder back and has such a smooth pressure curve it gets velocities it shouldn't.

Cheers.

 

[Chas1]

I have had the same questions and have no firm conclusions other than the annealing equipment can be expensive. I have decided to just live with what I have and not anneal

I agree with corsair. Equipment can get expensive and with several thousands rounds in each caliber I own....well that gives me a whole lot of shooting before I'd have to anneal. To each their own.

 

[Greyfox]

Depends on the brass manufacturer, cartridge and chamber/neck dimension. I don't bother annealing with my 6.5x284's using Lapua brass. I can get 8-10 reliads with no chane in accuracy/ES over this span. Pretty much the same/better with my 6.5 Lapua.

 

[Bad weather]

I anneal every time you will not do any harm and it gives me consistent neck tension. With an annealing machine it takes only a few minutes to anneal 50 cases so why not. I have lost track of how many times I have reused my brass

 

[RWE]

I have some never annealed .308 brass on its eight firing that will be a part of my own little experiment. It took considerably more effort and I used a lot of lube last go round with that brass to resize. I am looking forward to annealing this batchand seeing what difference it makes. I don't expect much more from this brass as has been pointed out, the primer pockets get loose. This is FGMM and as of last firing primer pockets were ok but I will be evaluating that as well. Some necks were splitting, so it may be too late but what the heck. Have some Hornady Match to test for 308 as well but just not shooting 308 as much these days.

Other/new brass, etc - I will be annealing each firing, doesn't take long, part of the hobby to me. My concern is not case/case neck life but case neck tension consistency. Maybe a waste of time, but I don't care.

 

[TRG65]

When I started annealing, I noticed improvement in consistency in seating and SDs over the life of the case. I annealed my 6.5 Addiction (6.5x55 improved) every firing from the first firing on my last set of brass and from the start to the end of the brass. I don't think I adjusted the seating die or sizing die once in a few thousand rounds of loading. That was a first. At the end of the brass's life I was still getting 5 for SDs. I shot 6.5x47 for years prior to this (also prior to annealing) after about 5 firing I would have to start adjusting the sizer to maintain the bump and I would have to adjust the seating die as well. Also, the SDs would gradually creep up over the life of the case, when I'd go to a new barrel, if the old brass would fit, it would never be as good on SD as it was new.

If you are happy with a 10-15 SD, don't worry about it. If you are looking for SDs of 4-8, then I'd anneal.

 

[BrentM]

It's interesting how many people give out info that is just weird on so many levels.

Brass life is tied to abuse. If you run a load over pressure brass is not going to last more than a couple shots and sometimes you destroy a primer pocket in 1 shot.

Annealing is for removing the work and fire hardening of the neck to prevent premature case failure in that area and to control neck tension. He is 100% wrong about 6.5 PRC brass if he is referencing neck splits. I will easily get 15 reloads. He is also wrong about the need to anneal. At 4 reloads, on the 5th, there has been a distinct change in neck tension as the neck is pretty hard in my testing. I was originally going to anneal 2-3, due to being lazy, but decided to just stick with anneal every time.

 

[Marine sniper]

As someone pointed out the need to anneal depends GREATLY on the amount the case gets worked due to how much it stretches during firing and squeezed during resizing. I conducted a test with my 338 Lapua improved. I took a press, dies, etc to the range and shot and reloaded the same piece of brass 12 times. I use custom dies and a tight chamber so I am only bumping the shoulder .002 after firing and squeezing the neck .003. Aver the 12 rounds there was no difference in seating pressure (neck tension) nor accuracy on target.

The above said; as some point the brass will be hard enough it will not bump back as much during resizing.

 

[Jeffrey Van Zandt]

Lets talk annealing. Lets say on like a 308 vs 7RM vs 6.5 PRC if you annealed every other shot how many more shot per round would you likely get? I know it would very but what you think the avg would be. Gun shop guy said in like 28 nosler you are only going to get 4 or 5 shots no matter what. 6.5 PRC 6-8 so he doesn't worry about annealing those rounds. But 308 if you anneal 60 shots is possible? I've never annealed I've loaded 270 at least 20 shots and still shot great groups, but in 7RM I always go new at 8 shots. Would annealing get me more shots in 6.5 PRC and 7RM?

it will help the life of your brass but biggest thing is the SD you will get from doing your brass< I do it after every shot. my 300 win I am getting 9 firings per case, same with my 375 H&H and 35 wheeling, my 6.5 PRC I am up to 4 shots per case but it should go up to at least 8 also

 

[jarnold37]

Lets talk annealing. Lets say on like a 308 vs 7RM vs 6.5 PRC if you annealed every other shot how many more shot per round would you likely get? I know it would very but what you think the avg would be. Gun shop guy said in like 28 nosler you are only going to get 4 or 5 shots no matter what. 6.5 PRC 6-8 so he doesn't worry about annealing those rounds. But 308 if you anneal 60 shots is possible? I've never annealed I've loaded 270 at least 20 shots and still shot great groups, but in 7RM I always go new at 8 shots. Would annealing get me more shots in 6.5 PRC and 7RM?

Annealing gives the needed benefit of keeping and restoring the elasticity of the brass. Brass work hardens from firing and sizing. It is the opposite of steel, which softens from working. All cartridge brass will harden from working. Have experimented with sizing die button resistance and pulling bullets in increments of new brass to 7-8 firings and sidings. The neck tension is progressively more the more times the brass is resized. Even to the point of excessive overpressure due to the neck "clamping" the bullet so tightly due to the work hardening and the absence of the original elasticity. I think annealing is the most important aspect of reloading-for accuracy and safety. And yes they need to be quenched. Basic metallurgy shows this.

 

[cabelasken]

There are so many factors affecting case life that it's hard to predict the benefit of annealing. If you typically load close to max charges like I do, the primer pockets on my brass go south after 6 to 8 firings. I believe case wall straightnes and shoulder angle have some affect on the ability of the case neck to keep from splitting as less of the brass is "moving" from shot to shot. But, that said, I have a friend that shoots many thousands of ground rodents every year and he anneals after every 3rd or 4th reload and he gets twice as many reloads out of his brass. He doesn't load extremely hot, but stays in the middle to prolong barrel life and brass life.

 

[BallisticExpansion]

I anneal simply because of providing more consistent neck tension. Also playing with fire is fun

Longer brass life is a bonus of it. Doesn't matter much anyway. Brass is cheap... typically.

 

[geocodyrgia]

In my 6mm Creedmoor I've found annealing I can get as good as 1.5-2" groups at 400 yards while without annealing (first firing after firing the annealed loads) the same load tends to shoot more like 3-4" @ 400 yards. I use salt bath annealing and these results have convinced me to start annealing for every reload. Haven't gone through a bunch of iterations to confirm yet, but the differences across different load tests in annealed vs non-annealed were consistent enough to convince me. BTW, you can get into the salt bath annealing for < $100 if I remember right.