Some brands of brass need annealed when new. I had 50 pieces of Remington new brass and about 50% split in first fireforming. When brass is this hard and lacks elasticity, pressures will spike. Try pulling a bullet after 5 reloadings and the grip on the bullet is excessive. The best equipment I have found to anneal is not expensive. A propane torch and a pan of water and a room with little or no light. I stand 5 cases in water about half way up on case and heat neck red and tip over in water and quench. Have done hundreds of cases and results in excellent accuracy as neck tension is consistent. When necks lose elasticity the grip on the bullet is so strong that it will cause overpressure in a load that previously showed no pressure, and can even cause blown primers and severe increase in velocities.
Annealing vs not?
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MagnumManiac
Well-Known Member
Any red when you are annealing is BAD!
When the flame corona just starts to turn ORANGE, not the brass, the heat is just starting to release gas from the brass, anything past this point is burning the brass and making it too soft.
Once this brass is beyond 850F it is classed as ruined, it may be useable but will never again work harden back to where it is springy.
There is no glow at 750F in brass. Copper glows at 450F to 500F. It is fully annealed at 500F and is like a liquorice strap, it will sag under it's own weight. I used to anneal copper windings for large electrical motors, they were annealed, wound then hardened again by heating and freezing in specialised forges. I also did aluminium windings for welding machines.
To anneal and have the correct amount of hardness, ie spring back, takes a specific amount of heat at a specific amount of time. Above or below this is not ideal.
Cheers.
When the flame corona just starts to turn ORANGE, not the brass, the heat is just starting to release gas from the brass, anything past this point is burning the brass and making it too soft.
Once this brass is beyond 850F it is classed as ruined, it may be useable but will never again work harden back to where it is springy.
There is no glow at 750F in brass. Copper glows at 450F to 500F. It is fully annealed at 500F and is like a liquorice strap, it will sag under it's own weight. I used to anneal copper windings for large electrical motors, they were annealed, wound then hardened again by heating and freezing in specialised forges. I also did aluminium windings for welding machines.
To anneal and have the correct amount of hardness, ie spring back, takes a specific amount of heat at a specific amount of time. Above or below this is not ideal.
Cheers.
Aside from extending case life, the other major argument for annealing is consistency in neck tension. To what degree it helps is, once again, debatable. My view is it certainly won't hurt to do it. With or without a machine, it's not an onerous task, although a machine does make life a little easier.
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
Careful not to assume intent dictates reality.
The load has to like it, or it's bad.
The load has to like it, or it's bad.
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Here is a video of Eric Cortina shooting a .3" 4 shot group and the 5th shot made it a 1.3" group at a 1000 yards. He did it with over annealed ruined dead soft brass.
IMHO There are a couple of different things going on here. stress relieving and annealing. Stress relieving relieves stress while maintaining hardness. Annealing relieves stress and returns hardness back to its original state.
IMHO There are a couple of different things going on here. stress relieving and annealing. Stress relieving relieves stress while maintaining hardness. Annealing relieves stress and returns hardness back to its original state.
I have a pair of 223s with 1200 cases for each, one rifle uses Lapua and the other uses Starline. I usually shoot up all 2400 rounds from March to August shooting chucks. Then I deprime, tumble and anneal every case. They are annealed after every firing. May be excessive but I've got the time and my groups are deadly accurate on small chucks. Some unfortunate ones out to 620 yards.
Now I have a 25-06 and a couple of hundred Remington cases that I'm going to treat the same way. That rifle too will be used on chucks. Just the long range ones.
Now I have a 25-06 and a couple of hundred Remington cases that I'm going to treat the same way. That rifle too will be used on chucks. Just the long range ones.
I was fortunate enough to be on a team that did extensive testing for the "Annealing Made Perfect" company.
We were testing to see if annealing made a difference in consistency and accuracy, as well as the affect on case life. The test ran over a few months, with rounds fired from 100yds to 1000yds. Several calibers were included (6BRA-.338LM). With much data collected, the results showed that annealing each time did have an affect on accuracy and consistency. Strangely, the 6BRA cartridge did not show a difference, but the larger capacity cartridges did (some were substantial).
Another part of the test was to see how many shots could be fired in a cartridge before it failed (annealed and unannealed). A Sako TRG chambered in .308 was used. The unannealed went 24 shots before case separation. The annealed was still good at 44. The loads used were on the higher end pressure wise. all shots were at 100yds, leaving a ragged hole. Surprisingly, the primer pockets held up through the test. Peterson brass was used.
There is quite a bit of content on YouTube, both with the AMP folks and others.
We were testing to see if annealing made a difference in consistency and accuracy, as well as the affect on case life. The test ran over a few months, with rounds fired from 100yds to 1000yds. Several calibers were included (6BRA-.338LM). With much data collected, the results showed that annealing each time did have an affect on accuracy and consistency. Strangely, the 6BRA cartridge did not show a difference, but the larger capacity cartridges did (some were substantial).
Another part of the test was to see how many shots could be fired in a cartridge before it failed (annealed and unannealed). A Sako TRG chambered in .308 was used. The unannealed went 24 shots before case separation. The annealed was still good at 44. The loads used were on the higher end pressure wise. all shots were at 100yds, leaving a ragged hole. Surprisingly, the primer pockets held up through the test. Peterson brass was used.
There is quite a bit of content on YouTube, both with the AMP folks and others.
Solid testing with controlled lots is always better to win a discussion than anecdotal "this is how I do it" statements. Thank you 340PR
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
So then your team learned how constant annealing helped with case life and accuracy?
What did you figure out?
What did you figure out?
Not exactly sure how to answer your question.
The test data did show improved consistency in grouping and accuracy over many rounds through 5 different rifles and cartridges, mostly at 1000yds, under many weather conditions (we did have wind calls, spotters and cameras).
Some 1000yd standouts were the 6BRA that turned in a 3.25" , and the 6.5 Creedmoor (factory Tikka) turned in several under 5".
Start to finish, the annealed out performed the unannealed, with the exception of the 6BRA, which showed no appreciable difference.
You can follow the different tests and processes they have done on their website and on YouTube. If you have specific questions, contact them directly. They are great folks who are passionate about what they do.
On Youtube search for Annealing Made Perfect. The video is there.
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
Let me just suggest that until understanding is gained, it's all anecdotal.
Poster A says annealing hurt his load performance.
Poster B says annealing helped his load performance.
Poster A's observation is as valid as poster B's observation, as it happens neither determined the cause of their result.
Poster A says annealing hurt his load performance.
Poster B says annealing helped his load performance.
Poster A's observation is as valid as poster B's observation, as it happens neither determined the cause of their result.
OK, like most I have gone down so many different roads on "Manual Annealing" using propane, Tempilaq, flat stone in tin pan etc. Worked OK at best but it was what I could afford and needed. BUT I settled in on a different approach that has worked extremely well for me. I no longer use Tempilaq since I feel I can "see" the change and be spot on.
I use a Mapp torch, small Skil driver with a Lee case trimmer shellholder and small bowl of cold water. The key to the whole process is the constant RPM turn of the case in the tip of the torch. You are heating as consistently as possible all sides of the neck and shoulder. Once you have established how long in the flame to reach the desired anneal on the neck, you can duplicate pretty well with simple mental countdown, shut off torch and simultaneously remove driver from flame. I then dip case still turning in driver into bowl of water to cool down ASAP and then remove case, place Q-Tip in mouth to clean while case is turning and then place upside down in an old ammo block that was drilled out in bottom to allow water to drain. usually very very little.
The Mapp torch provide instant clear blue consistent flame that is perfect to manage concentration on the neck/shoulder for consistent results. Depending upon cartridge and brass the time is anywhere from 3-4 seconds to 5-7 seconds which is really easy to manage once you get the hang of it.
Try a couple test runs with some old range brass and you will see how easy it is to manage the heat. What is interesting is how sensitive the time is for this process, one more second than needed and you can hit too hot in eye blink but I can watch the brass coloration and know instantly when to pull out and shutdown. I also like the torch is off instantly so you don't have the always on safety issue with propane. The RPM will be a major determining factor on the time as well and all drivers are different speeds. The Lee shell holder can be used for virtually any cartridge out there so you have good flexibility for diameters. So if looking to try something different, this may work for you.
I use a Mapp torch, small Skil driver with a Lee case trimmer shellholder and small bowl of cold water. The key to the whole process is the constant RPM turn of the case in the tip of the torch. You are heating as consistently as possible all sides of the neck and shoulder. Once you have established how long in the flame to reach the desired anneal on the neck, you can duplicate pretty well with simple mental countdown, shut off torch and simultaneously remove driver from flame. I then dip case still turning in driver into bowl of water to cool down ASAP and then remove case, place Q-Tip in mouth to clean while case is turning and then place upside down in an old ammo block that was drilled out in bottom to allow water to drain. usually very very little.
The Mapp torch provide instant clear blue consistent flame that is perfect to manage concentration on the neck/shoulder for consistent results. Depending upon cartridge and brass the time is anywhere from 3-4 seconds to 5-7 seconds which is really easy to manage once you get the hang of it.
Try a couple test runs with some old range brass and you will see how easy it is to manage the heat. What is interesting is how sensitive the time is for this process, one more second than needed and you can hit too hot in eye blink but I can watch the brass coloration and know instantly when to pull out and shutdown. I also like the torch is off instantly so you don't have the always on safety issue with propane. The RPM will be a major determining factor on the time as well and all drivers are different speeds. The Lee shell holder can be used for virtually any cartridge out there so you have good flexibility for diameters. So if looking to try something different, this may work for you.
340PR You have first hand knowledge here so in the video below can you tell me why they used 2 rifles ?Rifle A unannealed brass and Rifle B annealed brass 20 shots each. I think the fact they use 2 rifles voids that part of the video. The information on the pc screen in the video does not agree with what they are saying so I will trust the software on the pc more. Rifle A 1st 10 shot group .4 2nd 10 shot group .4 Rifle B annealed brass 1st 10 shot group .3 2nd 10 shot group .5 according to the software in the video.
The 1000 yard video they shoot the unannealed group then before they shoot the annealed group the wind caller talks to the shooter about better wind corrections and surprise surprise he shoots a smaller group.
Why did they feel the need go after the competition here?
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