Canhunter35
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2017
- Messages
- 3,167
Except a 257 and a 25-06 are different beasts altogether again. Lol
6.5 Creedmoor or 25-06 for Deer
- Thread starter Dirt_Nap
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
Except a 257 and a 25-06 are different beasts altogether again. Lol
snox801
Well-Known Member
That is a valid and true statement. Especially when I run a 28" tube which really lets the Roy shine.
snox801
Well-Known Member
But don't tell others that try and tell me the Roy isnt any better. Lol
I hear that all the time.
I hear that all the time.
Canhunter35
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2017
- Messages
- 3,167
Yeah that always amuses me. And a v6 is almost as good as a v8 and on and on.
Barrel length really changes things. I have it all *** backwards lol. a 26" tube on my creed and a 24" on my 257?? Didn't know any better when I bought the 257. Now I'd put a 30" tube on it!
MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
Yes, but when you only count cylinder numbers instead of actual displacement and HP numbers, is where most folks screw up. Prime example... 6.7 Powerstroke has 8 cylinders, with only .8375 L of displacement per cylinder... 6.7 Cummins has 6 cylinders, and has 1.1167 L of displacement per cylinder.
And while the 6.7 PowerChoke V8 might produce more HP and turn higher RPM's, the old straight-6 Cummins will produce nearly a 1:2 HP to TQ ratio when you start building performance, and will out-pull the PowerChoke and the Durasmack any day of the week.
As for V6 vs. V8, I am an all-American V8 guy when it comes to muscle cars and sportscars. To me personally, it's V8 or nothing. But, a funny one is comparing the 2010 Mustang GT 4.6L V8 (315 HP) to the 2011 Mustang V6 (305 HP)... The new naturally-aspirated V6 they put into the 2011 models had 10 less horsepower, than the previous year's 4.6L V8. In a scenario like this, the 2011 V6 car, with the extra weight savings and only 10 less HP, might actually beat the 2010 V8 car...
But I will put it in a V8 to V8 comparison... Chevy guys love to talk about how much HP the new 2018 6.2L Camaro produces...455 HP. Well, the new 2018 Mustang has a tiny little 5.0L V8 that produces about 5 MORE HP in stock form...460 HP. And it ****ES Chevy supporters off, because they're getting their asses handed to them by a car with a much smaller motor. The Chevy may produce more torque, but torque doesn't win drag races. It's all about the efficiency and HP numbers the motor produces, and not running out of RPM's before tripping the beam, and having your car properly setup.
That's why I laugh when folks still think like it's 1940 when they talk about cartridges, and think that just by stuffing crap-tons of powder behind something makes it better. There is a balance, and it has to be found, or else you're cheating yourself either too much, or too little.
Have both and shot both for several years. Finally came time to replace my 25-06 barrel. I am replacing it with a 6.5 CM barrel. Killed a lot of stuff with the 25-06 and it can make some spectacular kills, especially inside 300 yards. But the CM just does so much better in the wind and the wind is usually what limits me with the 25-06.
Plus, with the 25-06 you are pushing about ~20% more powder thru a smaller hole. So the CM will get better barrel life. Also as others have said, a shorter barrel doesn't handicap the CM as much as it does the 25-06.
Plus, with the 25-06 you are pushing about ~20% more powder thru a smaller hole. So the CM will get better barrel life. Also as others have said, a shorter barrel doesn't handicap the CM as much as it does the 25-06.
cdherman
Well-Known Member
Well,, I have owned one 25-06 for now approaching 40 years. And its being rebarreled into a 280 AI. I have another 25-06 that I have owned only 8 months. And its going to be re barreled to something more useful.....
Here's the problem with the 25-06: It is and was conceived to be a "one gun" solution for varmints to deer. That means compromise. The twist was set slow, as varmint slugs did not need a fast twist. And the "heavy" slugs in the 120 gr range had to deal with the consequences. And forget anything over 120. And heavy lead core .257 bullets are NOT available.
In the end, the 25-06 is too much for varmints, not quite right for deer (but does both well enough, if you really want to have one gun only).
Back when long distances were 300 yards and people wanted maximum velocity so they did not have to worry about hold over, never mind having a scope with turrets etc, super fast cartridges were the best solution to get to say 300 or 350 yards. The 25-06 can do that.
But its not an accuracy round, horribly over-bore and with the slow twist, a pain to stabilize even the mediocre BC slugs that are out there.
I would never, ever recommend a 25-06 as a deer round. For those posters that say its a "bang-flop" deer round. Well you have not shot enough deer with one. Moreover, many of my 25-06 kills through the years, though SPECTACULAR BANG-FLOPS, were the result of a bullet that just plain blew up. And the process of dressing out the animal and salvaging the meat (a part I consider my ethical duty) was a royal pain.....
NOW -- to my recommendation. If you are deciding between 25-06 and a 6.5 Creedmoor, then you have not researched your options enough. First decide your action. You want short action? You need to consider CM or 260 or 260 AI if you hand load, Maybe 6.5-284 if you don't want to shoot heavy bullets long range. You willing to stay long action? Then the world is your playpen. LOTS of cool options in very high BC bullets. 6.5-06, 6.5 Sherman, 6.5-285, all the 6.5 Magnums, 270 and 270 AI, and in 7mm you can do 7mm RM or 280 AI.
Personally, I am also having trouble deciding. But one bit of advice: the 25-06 is not your ticket to joy...
Here's the problem with the 25-06: It is and was conceived to be a "one gun" solution for varmints to deer. That means compromise. The twist was set slow, as varmint slugs did not need a fast twist. And the "heavy" slugs in the 120 gr range had to deal with the consequences. And forget anything over 120. And heavy lead core .257 bullets are NOT available.
In the end, the 25-06 is too much for varmints, not quite right for deer (but does both well enough, if you really want to have one gun only).
Back when long distances were 300 yards and people wanted maximum velocity so they did not have to worry about hold over, never mind having a scope with turrets etc, super fast cartridges were the best solution to get to say 300 or 350 yards. The 25-06 can do that.
But its not an accuracy round, horribly over-bore and with the slow twist, a pain to stabilize even the mediocre BC slugs that are out there.
I would never, ever recommend a 25-06 as a deer round. For those posters that say its a "bang-flop" deer round. Well you have not shot enough deer with one. Moreover, many of my 25-06 kills through the years, though SPECTACULAR BANG-FLOPS, were the result of a bullet that just plain blew up. And the process of dressing out the animal and salvaging the meat (a part I consider my ethical duty) was a royal pain.....
NOW -- to my recommendation. If you are deciding between 25-06 and a 6.5 Creedmoor, then you have not researched your options enough. First decide your action. You want short action? You need to consider CM or 260 or 260 AI if you hand load, Maybe 6.5-284 if you don't want to shoot heavy bullets long range. You willing to stay long action? Then the world is your playpen. LOTS of cool options in very high BC bullets. 6.5-06, 6.5 Sherman, 6.5-285, all the 6.5 Magnums, 270 and 270 AI, and in 7mm you can do 7mm RM or 280 AI.
Personally, I am also having trouble deciding. But one bit of advice: the 25-06 is not your ticket to joy...
IHFarmer07
Well-Known Member
So cdherman I agree with what you had said about the 25-06 while a decent round, its just antique and there's better options out there now. Now I have a question for you on your recommendation, I am wanting to build a remage rifle soon and I need advice on which round. I don't want to reload and I would like to stay with short action, what would you choose? I'm really looking at the 6.5Cm.
If I was looking into a long action what would you recommend?
If I was looking into a long action what would you recommend?
MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
I don't even know where to begin to respond to that... Especially the part about not having killed enough animals with a certain caliber to tell a good kill from a bad kill... Last I checked, the animal is dead and recovered and harvested...That's a good kill. I haven't killed any with my .25-06 AI, but I shot enough of them with my .257 Weatherby to know that the .25 caliber bullets traveling over 3,300 FPS will flat-kill whitetail deer.
Also, animals run. They don't bang-flop every time, and honestly, that rarely happens unless you happen to hit the CNS just right when the animal is not stressed at all. If the animal is alert or stressed, and you shoot it, it's going to run because it's adrenaline is already running from it's fight or flight response that's being triggered in its brain.
While I normally use 7mm and .30 caliber cartridges for deer hunting, they are not necessary. Animals are not magical and are not that hard to kill. Some run, some don't, and as long as you know how to shoot, put the bullet where you want it, and know how to track, you shouldn't lose any animals, regardless of caliber diameter. There are many deer killed each year by AR's chambered in .223 Remington.
Oh, and as for bullets blowing up, it's well-documented that I've had a Hornady 139 SST grenade on a whitetail from a 7mm RemMag when it was running over 3,300 FPS MV. The deer was found and harvested, but it made a mess. My point is, any bullet that's too light traveling too fast has the potential to explode.
Accuracy... EVERY cartridge has the potential to be just as accurate as any other...Some rifles are just not as accurate as others. The .25-06 is no exception, and can be just as accurate as a 6mm Dasher being shot from a 70 lb. HG benchrest rig bolted to a metal slide.
To the OP, pick what you want, but don't believe that there is anything wrong with the .25-06, other than the lack of heavy high-BC bullets, and that's the industry's fault for letting all the .25 caliber shooters down.
As for the .25-06 being an "antique", that doesn't have anything to do with anything. That's like saying the .30-06 is obsolete because it's been around since 1906... TO this day, it's still one of the most widely used and revered American hunting cartridges that's ever been created.
Also, animals run. They don't bang-flop every time, and honestly, that rarely happens unless you happen to hit the CNS just right when the animal is not stressed at all. If the animal is alert or stressed, and you shoot it, it's going to run because it's adrenaline is already running from it's fight or flight response that's being triggered in its brain.
While I normally use 7mm and .30 caliber cartridges for deer hunting, they are not necessary. Animals are not magical and are not that hard to kill. Some run, some don't, and as long as you know how to shoot, put the bullet where you want it, and know how to track, you shouldn't lose any animals, regardless of caliber diameter. There are many deer killed each year by AR's chambered in .223 Remington.
Oh, and as for bullets blowing up, it's well-documented that I've had a Hornady 139 SST grenade on a whitetail from a 7mm RemMag when it was running over 3,300 FPS MV. The deer was found and harvested, but it made a mess. My point is, any bullet that's too light traveling too fast has the potential to explode.
Accuracy... EVERY cartridge has the potential to be just as accurate as any other...Some rifles are just not as accurate as others. The .25-06 is no exception, and can be just as accurate as a 6mm Dasher being shot from a 70 lb. HG benchrest rig bolted to a metal slide.
To the OP, pick what you want, but don't believe that there is anything wrong with the .25-06, other than the lack of heavy high-BC bullets, and that's the industry's fault for letting all the .25 caliber shooters down.
As for the .25-06 being an "antique", that doesn't have anything to do with anything. That's like saying the .30-06 is obsolete because it's been around since 1906... TO this day, it's still one of the most widely used and revered American hunting cartridges that's ever been created.
For me, it helps to know what you already have in your inventory to make a sound decision or in our case make a recommendation.
snox801
Well-Known Member
Yes, but when you only count cylinder numbers instead of actual displacement and HP numbers, is where most folks screw up. Prime example... 6.7 Powerstroke has 8 cylinders, with only .8375 L of displacement per cylinder... 6.7 Cummins has 6 cylinders, and has 1.1167 L of displacement per cylinder.
And while the 6.7 PowerChoke V8 might produce more HP and turn higher RPM's, the old straight-6 Cummins will produce nearly a 1:2 HP to TQ ratio when you start building performance, and will out-pull the PowerChoke and the Durasmack any day of the week.
As for V6 vs. V8, I am an all-American V8 guy when it comes to muscle cars and sportscars. To me personally, it's V8 or nothing. But, a funny one is comparing the 2010 Mustang GT 4.6L V8 (315 HP) to the 2011 Mustang V6 (305 HP)... The new naturally-aspirated V6 they put into the 2011 models had 10 less horsepower, than the previous year's 4.6L V8. In a scenario like this, the 2011 V6 car, with the extra weight savings and only 10 less HP, might actually beat the 2010 V8 car...
But I will put it in a V8 to V8 comparison... Chevy guys love to talk about how much HP the new 2018 6.2L Camaro produces...455 HP. Well, the new 2018 Mustang has a tiny little 5.0L V8 that produces about 5 MORE HP in stock form...460 HP. And it ****ES Chevy supporters off, because they're getting their asses handed to them by a car with a much smaller motor. The Chevy may produce more torque, but torque doesn't win drag races. It's all about the efficiency and HP numbers the motor produces, and not running out of RPM's before tripping the beam, and having your car properly setup.
That's why I laugh when folks still think like it's 1940 when they talk about cartridges, and think that just by stuffing crap-tons of powder behind something makes it better. There is a balance, and it has to be found, or else you're cheating yourself either too much, or too little.
Or when you strap a turbo on it like the 3.5 ecoboost v6. I traded my v8 and diesel for a much better v6. I only have ecoboost now.
My 4 banger 2.3 boost had 432whp and 574trq at the wheels. I feel like I need a trailer hitch on my focus. Lol
snox801
Well-Known Member
If you are Loking to stat short action and factory ammo. You really can't beat the 6.5 creed. Mine is shooting really tight groups with factory hornady ammo.
And like mud said I've killed plenty of deer and the mythical bullet proof hogs with my .25 cal. It's an amazing round. Not all bang flops like stated but many with nice exit holes. At those speed you need better bullet choice. I see way to may trying to shoot bullets not made for that application. The thing that really has me using my 6.5 more than my .257 is A. It's newer to me so it's still fun to learn what it can do. B. It is able to perform with a short barrel making it easy to carry and swing. That being said every year I still reach for the .25 and take it to a stand and whack something with it. I just have a spot in my heart for it. In fact I was going to bring it down to Texas and take a oryx with it this year. That may be not happening as I had some issues with accuracy while at the range last. Could have been me cause it was 5 degrees.
Honestly you will love either round. Pick one and enjoy it. My suggestion is if you don't plane to shoot over 300 very often get the .25 hands down. If you are going to got over that then go for the 6.5.
cdherman
Well-Known Member
For a short action, in the 6.5 catagory, 6.5 CM seems hard to beat right now. It looks like it will break through to "critical mass" and become a pretty common cartridge. In contrast to some other SA cartridges like the 260, 270 WSM, 7mm WSM and RSAUM, etc etc. Those never reached critical mass. They are still out there and reloaders can benefit from them, But a box a shells at cabellas will set you back a pile and don't ever expect to putchase those from your local walmart.
Back to the 25-06 for a moment -- it really boils down to .257 caliber bullets not being out there. Thats not the fault of the manufacturers. Its just what moves. The .264 bullets being readily available in heavy long bullets with great BC is a leftover effect of the old 6.5x55 Swede, which was a military cartridge and originally shot a massive 160gr roundnose (that the Swedes and all militaries thought you needed in 1894). And thus it was barreled with a 7.8" twist to stabilize that long heavy. Since all those old sweedes could handle long heavy bullets, and used the 1:8 twist, the demand for long heavies was always there.
We cannot change history. .007" is all that separates .257 and .264. You want a long range gun? Build something in 6.5!
Back to the 25-06 for a moment -- it really boils down to .257 caliber bullets not being out there. Thats not the fault of the manufacturers. Its just what moves. The .264 bullets being readily available in heavy long bullets with great BC is a leftover effect of the old 6.5x55 Swede, which was a military cartridge and originally shot a massive 160gr roundnose (that the Swedes and all militaries thought you needed in 1894). And thus it was barreled with a 7.8" twist to stabilize that long heavy. Since all those old sweedes could handle long heavy bullets, and used the 1:8 twist, the demand for long heavies was always there.
We cannot change history. .007" is all that separates .257 and .264. You want a long range gun? Build something in 6.5!
MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
I'll never own a gas-burner with less than 8 cylinders...Especially in a car or 1/2-ton truck. I love my 2017 Mustang GT Performance Pack...Has plenty of power for everyday needs, but I personally feel it needs a couple turbos under the hood. I have a high horsepower disease...
As for diesels, I'll take my old straight-6 any day of the week. I bought my 6.7 Cummins new in 07, and the work started immediately. 6" lift, tires, wheels, and full deletes and tuning within the first 3,000 miles, and with all the work following, it has become quite the beast. Dry pavement, and you lay it to the floor, those 38x15.50's are going to start spinning. And if the roads are wet and you're already rolling along at 50-60 MPH, you stomp it and it breaks loose with instant boost. To the OP, sorry for the derailment, it started with an analogy comparison, but turned into a separate conversation...
Back to the regularly scheduled programming...
