300 WM Long Range Load Help

It's funny that I do the exact opposite. Determine seating depth first, then play with powder. Many ways to get it done.
i do seating depth test first also in .030" jumps,Then powder charge, then fine tune seating depth. For powder charge I like Ladder testing over a chrono at what ever distance. Dosent really matter. Just looking for flat spots. Half moa with single digit es is my goal.
 

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Yep. I do the same thing. I tweak my seating depths in 20-30 thou increments until I find the best accuracy. A Berger 215 at 2800fps plus just plain works.
Funny, the OP has my exact load (without coal listed) for my Berger 215s.

I have now migrated towards finding something a little lighter in the recoil dept now that I shoot suppressed. I am experimenting with some lighter bullets and less powder. Probably just end up going back to the old reliable.
Try the Peregrine VLR4 or VLR5 in the 183gr or whatever they are making now. The speeds will peel your hair back, accuracy is great and they'll never let you down on game.
 
Great advice. I've started getting more systematic about it and now don't bother adjusting seating depth at the beginning. Getting range time is the challenge for me where I live, so I'd show up with piles of different batches—one series testing depths at a constant and low charge and another series testing powder charges at a constant depth. That'd be 50 rounds right there.

I need to get another rifle to keep practicing!
There's as much art as there is science in this and after a while you'll develop a "feel" for each rifle and where you're happy places are for various bullets, loads, etc.

When you get there it gets to be a whole lot more fun and a whole lot less frustrating.
 
i do seating depth test first also in .030" jumps,Then powder charge, then fine tune seating depth. For powder charge I like Ladder testing over a chrono at what ever distance. Dosent really matter. Just looking for flat spots. Half moa with single digit es is my goal.
This is going to be a stupid question, but is there an app that does those measurements in that one pic you posted?
 
Well, since everyone else is throwing thier hat in the ring, I guess I will too. I think of it this way...there are two things you are dealing with.

1) You are dealing with powder burn rate and finding the optimal presure to burn the powder cleanly and efficiently as possible without being near the critcal max pressure.

2) You are dealing with barrel timing. Every barrel has a reaction to recoil causing it to whip, just like a bull whip or giving one end of a garden hose a quick shake.

The trick is to get the bullet to exit the barrel at the point where it is changing direction at one of the extreme ends of it's travel. This is the most forgiving spot for the bullet to exit because the barrel has to slow down, reverse direction, and then accelerate in the opposite direction.

This is why you can very often get loads that group very well in spite of a larger than desirable extreme spread in FPS. Conversely, you might have a very good ES and SD and the group might still look like hell. If you can get the powder to burn efficiently and consistently and cleanly while getting the bullet to exit at this point, then so much the better.

So, how do we determine our optimal powder burn rate? First, by finding max charge and backing off from that. But we do it in a very specific way. We figure out the maximum length we can tolerate for our over all length. This might be determined by a short throat, by magazine length, by neck length, whatever. Every rifle is different in this respect. You gotta figure that one out for yourself.

Loading at this length, you load 2 rounds of each charge, (0.5 grain increments for charge weights above 40 grains and 0.3 grain increments for smaller cases) until you find your max powder charge as determined by chronograph readings, and other traditional pressure signs. (flat primers, stiff bolt lift etc.). Once this upper limit is found, you back off the charge by 2%. This keeps you in the most efficient part of the pressure curve yet gives you enough head room for hotter temperatures.

Now we have found the optimal range of powder charge. We now work on barrel timing. The most efficient way to alter barrel timing is to change seating depth. Changing the powder charge in small increments will change the barrel timing also, but it changes the pressure much more. Changing seating depth, alters the barrel timing drastically, while having a much less effect on peak pressure.

Start seating the bullets deeper into the case in .005" increments until you find a depth that looks promising (meaning groups come together and vertical dispertion is minimized). You shouldn't have to go more than a total of .050" before a good group shows up. Once this load is found, you can fine tune seating depth +/- .002" either side just to see what it does.

Take the best of these last loads and you are done. If an obvious load doesn't present itself during this process, then it probably is not a viable combination.

This is the way I have done it for several years now, try it if you wish.
 
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Well, since everyone else is throwing thier hat in the ring, I guess I will too. I think of it this way...there are two things you are dealing with.

1) You are dealing with powder burn rate and finding the optimal presure to burn the powder cleanly and efficiently as possible without being near the critcal max pressure.

2) You are dealing with barrel timing. Every barrel has a reaction to recoil causing it to whip, just like a bull whip or giving one end of a garden hose a quick shake.

The trick is to get the bullet to exit the barrel at the point where it is changing direction at one of the extreme ends of it's travel. This is the most forgiving spot for the bullet to exit because the barrel has to slow down, reverse direction, and then accelerate in the opposite direction.

This is why you can very often get loads that group very well in spite of a larger than desirable extreme spread in FPS. Conversely, you might have a very good ES and SD and the group might still look like hell. If you can get the powder to burn efficiently and consistently and cleanly while getting the bullet to exit at this point, then so much the better.

So, how do we determine our optimal powder burn rate? First, by finding max charge and backing off from that. But we do it in a very specific way. We figure out the maximum length we can tolerate for our over all length. This might be determined by a short throat, by magazine length, by neck length, whatever. Every rifle is different in this respect. You gotta figure that one out for yourself.

Loading at this length, you load 2 rounds of each charge, (0.5 grain increments for charge weights above 40 grains and 0.3 grain increments for smaller cases) until you find your max powder charge as determined by chronograph readings, and other traditional pressure signs. (flat primers, stiff bolt lift etc.). Once this upper limit is found, you back off the charge by 2%. This keeps you in the most efficient part of the pressure curve yet gives you enough head room for hotter temperatures.

Now we have found the optimal range of powder charge. We now work on barrel timing. The most efficient way to alter barrel timing is to change seating depth. Changing the powder charge in small increments will change the barrel timing also, but it changes the pressure much more. Changing seating depth, alters the barrel timing drastically, while having a much less effect on peak pressure.

Start seating the bullets deeper into the case in .005" increments until you find a depth that looks promising (meaning groups come together and vertical dispertion is minimized). You shouldn't have to go more than a total of .050" before a good group shows up. Once this load is found, you can fine tune seating depth +/- .002" either side just to see what it does.

Take the best of these last loads and you are done. If an obvious load doesn't present itself during this process, then it probably is not a viable combination.

This is the way I have done it for several years now, try it if you wish.


I have only developed loads for a handful of rifles and it is still a learning process for me, taking many more rounds than people with more experience.

If I understand you correctly then he powder charge is of minimal importance for the precision of a load and is really just to get max velocity with a safety buffer around that velocity node. Seating depth is what matters and what dials in precision. Is that the right takeaway?
 
I have only developed loads for a handful of rifles and it is still a learning process for me, taking many more rounds than people with more experience.

If I understand you correctly then he powder charge is of minimal importance for the precision of a load and is really just to get max velocity with a safety buffer around that velocity node. Seating depth is what matters and what dials in precision. Is that the right takeaway?

That is not correct. They are of equal importance and anyone who tries to say other wise is not someone I would listen to. I also quickly looked back through my notes(not going to look at all) none of my optimal powder charges are at 2% less than max. If you want the quickest way to a great long range load go check out Jason Baney's ladder test article. Just google it. I have tried doing powder testing first and I have tried doing seating depth testing first. I see little difference.
 
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I run ramshot magnum with great results. Try the Barnes 175lrx or the 200lrx. Shoot great in a 1 in 10 twist. Play with powder charge then seating depth then primers. Myself I run 215ms with good results.
 
That is not correct. They are of equal importance and anyone who tries to say other wise is not someone I would listen to. I also quickly looked back through my notes(not going to look at all) none of my optimal powder charges are at 2% less than max. If you want the quickest way to a great long range load go check out Jason Baney's ladder test article. Just google it. I have tried doing powder testing first and I have tried doing seating depth testing first. I see little difference.
Many thanks...I hadn't heard others describe fixing a powder charge but figured maybe there was something i hadn't heard.
 
I wouldn't go so far as to say the powder charge isn't important. After all, you need the powder burning completely and cleanly. That usually means you are within 2-3% of maximum. I just think the minutae of it is far less important than most make it out to be. There is a very narrow range of charge weight that will give you optimal velocity while still being safe for all temperatures. That is what I aim for from the beginning, and 2% is usually just anout right.

Why would I care if a load groups if it is 100 fps below the velocity range I'm looking for? Why would I want a load that groups at 70 degrees, the goes crazy and spreads out or locks up bolts at 90 degrees?

Try it yourself, take any load you want and alter seating depth in ten .005" increments. You will see for yourself very quickly how much seating depth changes a load.

You don't have to take my word for it.
 
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That is not correct. They are of equal importance and anyone who tries to say other wise is not someone I would listen to. I also quickly looked back through my notes(not going to look at all) none of my optimal powder charges are at 2% less than max. If you want the quickest way to a great long range load go check out Jason Baney's ladder test article. Just google it. I have tried doing powder testing first and I have tried doing seating depth testing first. I see little difference.
How much less were they? What is your distance from the lands?
 
I am not sure where to start to address your statements. Looking at my notes(again not going to waste time going through every one) my nodes have typically been 1% or 3% below the start of pressure but I would NEVER get hung up on that number. I have typically found nodes to be 100-150fps apart. The ladder test will show you. Yes seating depth affects accuracy(see my pics in this thread). Yes there is usually a relatively small powder charge node where velocity es and accuracy overlap which is exactly why powder charge is very important. NOT somewhat important but VERY. I have found nodes where the accuracy was absolutely amazing and the es sucked so it would not maintain accuracy at 700,800,900, etc yards. I have also found loads where es was repeatedly single digit but the accuracy was well over 1moa which does not work for me. The nodes must overlap and the ladder performed at distance ensures this. Long range ladders on paper do not lie. The ladder test performed correctly also ensures your load will be stable in changing conditions. I have seen many get emotional with a small group on the ragged edge of a scatter node and those groups will not hold up in changing conditions. Chasing velocity is a fools game. The rifle/bullet/powder will dictate where accuracy is. Fortunately I have only run into 2 slow barrels. I have had identical barrels cut with the same reamer have completely different preferences. Distance form the lands? Every single rifle is different. Any one interested in my thoughts can pm me. To the op, I am sure you have figured this out, you need to do seating depth testing for the most accuracy your rifle is capable of.
 
I am not sure where to start to address your statements. Looking at my notes(again not going to waste time going through every one) my nodes have typically been 1% or 3% below the start of pressure but I would NEVER get hung up on that number. I have typically found nodes to be 100-150fps apart. The ladder test will show you. Yes seating depth affects accuracy(see my pics in this thread). Yes there is usually a relatively small powder charge node where velocity es and accuracy overlap which is exactly why powder charge is very important. NOT somewhat important but VERY. I have found nodes where the accuracy was absolutely amazing and the es sucked so it would not maintain accuracy at 700,800,900, etc yards. I have also found loads where es was repeatedly single digit but the accuracy was well over 1moa which does not work for me. The nodes must overlap and the ladder performed at distance ensures this. Long range ladders on paper do not lie. The ladder test performed correctly also ensures your load will be stable in changing conditions. I have seen many get emotional with a small group on the ragged edge of a scatter node and those groups will not hold up in changing conditions. Chasing velocity is a fools game. The rifle/bullet/powder will dictate where accuracy is. Fortunately I have only run into 2 slow barrels. I have had identical barrels cut with the same reamer have completely different preferences. Distance form the lands? Every single rifle is different. Any one interested in my thoughts can pm me. To the op, I am sure you have figured this out, you need to do seating depth testing for the most accuracy your rifle is capable of.
You wrote this post to refute what I was saying, but you made my case for me. You basically repeated every point I made. You just don't seem to like that I get there quicker and with much less fuss.

I did things your way, with the ladder testing and OCW, for 15 years. They do work, but they waste a whole lot of time and resources. And how many novices have you ever seen that could read a ladder or OCW properly anyway? How do think I came to these short cuts in the first place?
 
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