300 WM Long Range Load Help

[Wolf76]

I am looking for some advice on a good long range hunting bullet and power combo. Also wondering what your experience is as far as optimal velocity. The rifle is for elk only and desired up to 1000yds. I am currently running Burger 215 hybrids with 78.5 gr. Of H1000 at 2930 FPS. The rifle specs are custom build - Stiller action with a 26" Krieger 1-10 twist. I am currently adjusting bullet seating depth to try and tighten up the groups. Any advice on a load and velocity that has worked well for you would be greatly appreciated.

My load is 77.9, 215m with nosler brass and 3.6 coal. Started losing accuracy when I went above 78. Regularly shoots a ragged hole at 150m.
I only bump neck size with Forster dies. Runout is .001 or less. It all adds up.
The 210 is slightly more accurate in my gun.

 

[entoptics]

The above post stating seating depth testing is a waste is absolutely as far from the truth as you can get. ...His suggestion that a 300 win with a 215 is not adequate for shooting elk at 1000 yards is completely false as well...Advising to swap components before spending the necessary time to see they aren't going to work just does not make sense.

What Entoptics said about seating depth, and also about the 300 wm and elk, is simply completely incorrect...

I have gone back to my notes, and realize that the information I gleaned in 3 years and 2000+ rounds in 3 different barrels in my 300 WM, and the 2000 or so rounds in half a dozen other bolt rifles of different calibers over the last decade, was all fabricated by CNN and HuffPo. (Either that, or the statement "completely false/incorrect", is completely false/incorrect, as I have several spreadsheets that indicate it is indeed true/correct for several rifles.)

Regardless, I change my initial position, and I highly recommend that the OP pour a few hundred rounds down his barrel in 0.010 increments till he finds the right length. To save ammo and time, I encourage you to only shoot one 3 shot group at each length, then pick the smallest and declare it a "node". (My fake news spreadsheet says this is bad statistically, so I'm sure it must actually be good)

This is far better time spent than buying a 12 pack of a couple different bullets from submoashooting.com, and giving them a quick try. Whatever you do, don't practice field positions and wind doping, as this will have almost no affect on killing an elk at 1000 yds. You should spend all available resources on bench testing minute changes to your reloads...

Sarcastic jerk response finished... =)

 

[WildRose]

I have gone back to my notes, and realize that the information I gleaned in 3 years and 2000+ rounds in 3 different barrels in my 300 WM, and the 2000 or so rounds in half a dozen other bolt rifles of different calibers over the last decade, was all fabricated by CNN and HuffPo. (Either that, or the statement "completely false/incorrect", is completely false/incorrect, as I have several spreadsheets that indicate it is indeed true/correct for several rifles.)

Regardless, I change my initial position, and I highly recommend that the OP pour a few hundred rounds down his barrel in 0.010 increments till he finds the right length. To save ammo and time, I encourage you to only shoot one 3 shot group at each length, then pick the smallest and declare it a "node". (My fake news spreadsheet says this is bad statistically, so I'm sure it must actually be good)

This is far better time spent than buying a 12 pack of a couple different bullets from submoashooting.com, and giving them a quick try. Whatever you do, don't practice field positions and wind doping, as this will have almost no affect on killing an elk at 1000 yds. You should spend all available resources on bench testing minute changes to your reloads...

Sarcastic jerk response finished... =)

No need to be snarky.

There's no reason to believe your posted results are not accurate in your very limited experience with 3 rifles and your own handloading.

The issue is in you saying that seating depth simply cannot have more than a few percenge points effecton seating depth as that just isn't true for the vast majority of us.

Results will vary quite a bit from one shooter/reloader to the next.

Bergers are simply more finnicky about seating depth than most and a few thousandths can make a big difference in some barrels.

 

[Winefly]

Two cents worth from down under

pick a powder preferably a slow one, even more preferable the one you are already using. start with the lowest load recommended and work up one grain at a time, three rounds of each, go out to the range shoot them, record which one gives you the best ES and the best group. Hopefully this will get you down to around the half three-quarter inch mark then it might be worth looking at seating. If the result you want is to shoot accurately you may find the 2800 - 2820 will give you very good accuracy or if your rifle allows it 2920 to 2950 may also be accurate.

I found 2810 FPS to be my most accurate load at 6 mm at 100 m but I'm also pretty happy with 2935 fps giving me 8 mm groups.
Something else to consider if you are reloading are you full resizing or neck sizing the brass? I found I get over Max velocity two grains under maximum recommended load so boom lookout!
I also polish the throat every 50 rounds this can help!
Best of luck

 

[entoptics]

...There's no reason to believe your posted results are not accurate in your very limited experience with 3 rifles and your own handloading.

I mentioned 3 barrels for 300 WM, not 3 rifles. As I also mentioned in my second post, I've done load development and seating depth studies on another half dozen over-the-counter rifles in other calibers. But you are correct, my experience is indeed "very limited" compared to some, though I haven't met many of them in person.

The issue is in you saying that seating depth simply cannot have more than a few percenge points effecton seating depth...

I did not use "simply cannot". I said. "Unlikely". Those are quite different.

Results will vary quite a bit from one shooter/reloader to the next.

Yep.

Bergers are simply more finnicky about seating depth than most and a few thousandths can make a big difference in some barrels.

I agree that this is the conventional wisdom. I've only carefully documented about 50 Bergers in 300WM, with only cursory depth testing, but I did not see enough initial variance to look carefully, so I can't speak to this. They shot "pretty decent" at all lengths, but consistently threw a flier, which other bullets I tried didn't. My spreadsheet has seven, 4 shot groups, at 0.00, 0.03, and 0.06 off the lands. Variation was 0.3 MOA, though the ugliest performance was a single group, so it's statistically dubious. Looking at 3 groups each at 0.00 (0.84 MOA) and 0.03, (0.96 MOA) the variance is 0.12 MOA.

Anyway, I'm just suggesting that those with limited experience/resources, simply might try other options before committing to something widely regarded as "simply more finicky". Perhaps even a box of Nosler Trophy Grade, or Hornady Precision Hunter might be worth purchasing to use as a baseline.

Or not. =)

P.S. Long range shooting and load development isn't simple. And sorry for the snark...

 

[WildRose]

I mentioned 3 barrels for 300 WM, not 3 rifles. As I also mentioned in my second post, I've done load development and seating depth studies on another half dozen over-the-counter rifles in other calibers. But you are correct, my experience is indeed "very limited" compared to some, though I haven't met many of them in person.



I did not use "simply cannot". I said. "Unlikely". Those are quite different.



Yep.



I agree that this is the conventional wisdom. I've only carefully documented about 50 Bergers in 300WM, with only cursory depth testing, but I did not see enough initial variance to look carefully, so I can't speak to this. They shot "pretty decent" at all lengths, but consistently threw a flier, which other bullets I tried didn't. My spreadsheet has seven, 4 shot groups, at 0.00, 0.03, and 0.06 off the lands. Variation was 0.3 MOA, though the ugliest performance was a single group, so it's statistically dubious. Looking at 3 groups each at 0.00 (0.84 MOA) and 0.03, (0.96 MOA) the variance is 0.12 MOA.

Anyway, I'm just suggesting that those with limited experience/resources, simply might try other options before committing to something widely regarded as "simply more finicky". Perhaps even a box of Nosler Trophy Grade, or Hornady Precision Hunter might be worth purchasing to use as a baseline.

Or not. =)

P.S. Long range shooting and load development isn't simple. And sorry for the snark...

3 barrels, three chambers makes for 3 rifles for all practical purposes.

When it comes to normal folks, even normal LR guys like most here at this sit the individual's experiences with evern seveal rifles complated to that of Broz and some others who have three or four decades and the collected results of many dozen rifles is indeed very limited.

I'm always skeptical when people tell us a seating depth story that just a couple of thousanths cut their groups by half or more but I do know it's possible.

My first reaction if the problem is that you can't get below 2MOA odds are it's the accumulation of several things, not something just as simple as SD.

There are always of course exceptions to every rule and this may well be one of them.

 

[Bigdad]

I have had the most success developing accurate loads shooting a ladder test at 400 yds+. Use your Berger 215 and H1000. Load and shoot 10 rounds increasing by .3 or .4 grains the 10th round should be at, or close to, max pressure. Hodgdon load data lists 78.0 grains max for a 208 gr A-Max, the Berger 215 max load should be just South of that. Watch for pressure signs and stop the test when they start to get excessive. I like to document the velocity of each round and look for consistent velocity increase or variations. Find your accuracy node/s using the ladder results and you can fine tune seating depth using that load.

My go-to load for my Savage 111 LRH 300 Win Mag is Hornady 212 gr ELDX over 76.6 grains of H1000, Rem 9 1/2 Mag Primers, Nosler brass.

 

[Azrael]

You can make a rifle do anything IT wants to do. Good luck trying to sweet-talk one into something it doesn't want to do.

I wanted to shoot 215s in my target rifle; it told me it wanted 210s. Guess who won?

 

[FURMAN]

I have developed roughly 50 loads. I do not bring that up to gloat as I know there are far more experienced than I. I bring it up to state my experience is not a small sample size. Every single time seating depth has mattered. This is with Berger, Hornady, Sierra, and Nosler. I mostly shoot Berger for many reasons but it really does not matter in this discussion. Most on this forum have their own load development figured out but there are many new people coming for help and stating seating depth testing is a waste of time is, plain and simple, not true. I will not continue to argue in a public forum. Here are a few pics I am not going to waste time digging up more. It is pretty easy to see that it does matter. Obviously powder charge matters as well so you need to experiment with both. I most often do a ladder test to look for a powder node(done most often with bullets seated at lands), then seating depth testing, then tweak powder charge for final load. Sometimes at the lands is the most accurate but I always check. One thing the paper will not show is seating depth can affect velocity. Often when you find the powder charge node es may still be a little high and after seating depth testing the correct seating depth for the load will bring es down to single digits. For new readers who want the most out of their rifle you need to do seating depth testing otherwise I would just shoot factory ammo.
The first pic is 850 yards. The rest 100.

 

[aebhunter]

My method is a bit different from that of lots of guys but it works well for me and saves me a lot of time.

Load just short of mag length.

Work up several different loads.

Pick the top load or two and then start tweking seating depth a few thousanths at a time till I find my best groups.

Pick the best of the lot.

In ever worry about trying for top velocity anymore just the most accurate.

The animal you kill will never know the bullet left at 2900 vs 3100 and with all of the ballistic resources we have available today we can calculate our trajectories in secons.

Yep. I do the same thing. I tweak my seating depths in 20-30 thou increments until I find the best accuracy. A Berger 215 at 2800fps plus just plain works.
Funny, the OP has my exact load (without coal listed) for my Berger 215s.

I have now migrated towards finding something a little lighter in the recoil dept now that I shoot suppressed. I am experimenting with some lighter bullets and less powder. Probably just end up going back to the old reliable.

 

[1Moose]

I need to get faster at finding the nodes. I end up shooting lots of rounds. Some people seem to be able to be all dialed in within 30 shots.

The only bright side of that is I need plenty of practice and I don't have any hotrod cartridges so I'm not going to burn through any barrels before I'm done. I've fiddled with too many bullets concurrently when I think I should say "if I get good results with this one, I'm happy."

 

[The Oregonian]

I need to get faster at finding the nodes. I end up shooting lots of rounds. Some people seem to be able to be all dialed in within 30 shots.

The only bright side of that is I need plenty of practice and I don't have any hotrod cartridges so I'm not going to burn through any barrels before I'm done. I've fiddled with too many bullets concurrently when I think I should say "if I get good results with this one, I'm happy."

I went through the same thing this year..i have reloaded for a few years but wouldn't consider myself an expert. I had an elk hunt and needed to get things done. I spent a lot of rounds trying to get the load done, finalized, and practice enough to take game at twice the distance i have in the past.

But I learned more This year about shooting, reloading, and load development. I took a nice elk and learned a ton, so the 450 rounds, which is a good chunk of Barrel life, was 100% worth it.

You'll get there...just use it as a learning experience and the results will come and you will learn a ton. The best advice I can give is to simplify things and think your way through it rather than just load up the next batch if something doesn't work the way you want.

 

[1Moose]

I went through the same thing this year..i have reloaded for a few years but wouldn't consider myself an expert. I had an elk hunt and needed to get things done. I spent a lot of rounds trying to get the load done, finalized, and practice enough to take game at twice the distance i have in the past.

But I learned more This year about shooting, reloading, and load development. I took a nice elk and learned a ton, so the 450 rounds, which is a good chunk of Barrel life, was 100% worth it.

You'll get there...just use it as a learning experience and the results will come and you will learn a ton. The best advice I can give is to simplify things and think your way through it rather than just load up the next batch if something doesn't work the way you want.

Great advice. I've started getting more systematic about it and now don't bother adjusting seating depth at the beginning. Getting range time is the challenge for me where I live, so I'd show up with piles of different batches—one series testing depths at a constant and low charge and another series testing powder charges at a constant depth. That'd be 50 rounds right there.

I need to get another rifle to keep practicing!

 

[Wolf76]

Great advice. I've started getting more systematic about it and now don't bother adjusting seating depth at the beginning. Getting range time is the challenge for me where I live, so I'd show up with piles of different batches—one series testing depths at a constant and low charge and another series testing powder charges at a constant depth. That'd be 50 rounds right there.

I need to get another rifle to keep practicing!

It's funny that I do the exact opposite. Determine seating depth first, then play with powder. Many ways to get it done.