30 NOSLER OR 300 PRC

[WildRose]

As I have stated before I have no current interest in a Lapua bolt face so I have not checked any further into it and please do not quote me but I believe Frank Green of Bartlein barrels said this same thing. I also think I remember reading something similar from Ryan Cleckner. If you care to know you could try googling it.

Barrett just accepted a very large contract building .300 PRC's for the military.

The acceptance of the Norma was to come up with a .30cal round that would work in their .338 Lapua switch barrel rifles.

 

[Capt RB]

It revolved around ES/SD. At past 2000yds ES is a huge factor in hits and misses. Just 10fps deviation can go from center of plate to a miss on an ipsc target. Basically a human torso. I shoot to about 1250yds max maybe 1 week a year. I'm not the expert by a long shot. I've shot to a mile in the past I just don't have the time or equipment today to make it fun to do.

 

[FURMAN]

Barrett just accepted a very large contract building .300 PRC's for the military.

The acceptance of the Norma was to come up with a .30cal round that would work in their .338 Lapua switch barrel rifles.

I am not sure how that fits with my quote. I was saying I believe I read those two individuals saying

results they got clearly showed the 300PRC having a distinct advantage in ES and SD. The 300PRC is running about 75.2 grains of H1000 with the 225. The mk 248 mod 1 was running 77ish with the 220 sierria and blowing primers ask around. Both are running 2850

 

[WildRose]

Not really... The CM was sort of an original, but the PRC line is just stealing already established wildcats, giving them a different name, and then get them SAAMI spec'd. That's the whole magic that goes on behind the curtain. They're the wizards that are just laying down voodoo on the masses that hang on everything they do.

I buy Hornady brass, and shoot Hornady ammo in some of my handguns and AR's. I'm not hating on Hornady, I'm just dispelling the magic behind what they're doing. Some folks just don't want to admit it, and others get really pizzed off when you burst their bubble.

Hornady developed the parent cartridge and has been working on the 6.5, 7mm, and 30 cal variants since shortly after the .375 was released.

Wildcatters nearly always beat the manufacturers to the draw unless they do like Nosler and start with a proprietary case to begin with. Even at that, wildcatters were necking up the 26n for various wildcats before the first factory ammo and components even hit the market.

The hype against belted magnums has created the market for a non belted 30 cal with performance between the .300wm and .300 Rum with a smaller case than the Rum and that's what Hornady came out with.

 

[WildRose]

I am not sure how that fits with my quote. I was saying I believe I read those two individuals saying

results they got clearly showed the 300PRC having a distinct advantage in ES and SD. The 300PRC is running about 75.2 grains of H1000 with the 225. The mk 248 mod 1 was running 77ish with the 220 sierria and blowing primers ask around. Both are running 2850

I was just playing off of your ball.

 

[FURMAN]

I was just playing off of your ball.

Gotcha.

 

[FURMAN]

Hornady developed the parent cartridge and has been working on the 6.5, 7mm, and 30 cal variants since shortly after the .375 was released.

Wildcatters nearly always beat the manufacturers to the draw unless they do like Nosler and start with a proprietary case to begin with. Even at that, wildcatters were necking up the 26n for various wildcats before the first factory ammo and components even hit the market.

The hype against belted magnums has created the market for a non belted 30 cal with performance between the .300wm and .300 Rum with a smaller case than the Rum and that's what Hornady came out with.

Correct. Dave Tooley has been working on the "300 PRC" under a few different names and if I am not mistaken was working with Hornady most of if not the entire time. It got put on hold for several years for various reasons. If I remember correctly form what George Gardner said the 6.5 prc was from a combination of trying to meet a standard chamber design while meeting PRS requirements. I am not really sure why the history pertains to this cartridge discussion. I like the idea of both cartridges. I would have been nearly as happy just to see someone legitimize the 30 Newton.

 

[CA48]

I like all 3 of these cartridges. But the recent release of Lapua and Peterson brass for the 300 Norma has given it a new advantage in performance. You can run the 215s in that 3100-3150 node comfortably. All things equal running the same bullet 100 FPS faster than the other 2 you will have better results at extreme ranges. My buddy has several firings on his 300 NM Lapua brass running the 230s at 3025fps in a 26" barrel and it's holding up well.

I think we all know why the 300 PRC won the DOD contract with Barret. Although it is a well designed cartridge that will be well supported and perform at long range. But to state that it will outperform the 300NM at ELR is false unless they were testing with factory ammo and one ammo type just happened to shoot better than the other. All 3 are capable of producing desirable ES's for extreme range shooting.

 

[Capt RB]

If you only knew how much money gets exchanged to scratch each other's backs in the MIC and other parts of the government, you would be in shock. That's not an ignorant comment...That's one of the most truthful comments you'll ever read. Just like when folks say, "it's got to be good, the military uses it..." The military uses the cheapest stuff they can buy for the cheapest price, as long as it passes their specs and tests. Sure, the SOC guys and operators, and specialty units get to pick some specialty stuff like ACOGs and PEQ-15's, and such, but your average soldier is running a cheap select-fire M4 that's stripped-down with irons.

As for factory ammo, the ES and SD has to do with the quality and consistency of how the ammo is loaded... Wouldn't it be MASSIVELY cheaper for them to just tell Lake City to start loading the .300WM ammo more precisely? If they're blowing primers from temp pressure spikes, why not use a different powder that's more temp stable? That would be significantly cheaper than selling-off and buying BILLIONS of dollars of more guns.

My father worked in Aerospace for 30 yrs. Every single missile system and nasa spacecraft has parts from his company to this day You think you know something that isn't true. Politicians come in during campaign season and ask for donations/support. If they don't get it they will do what they can to kill a project. That's what happens. Companies that work for DOD are not bribing anyone. Most don't even take DOD personal to lunch while on site.
Name a more stable powder for the 300 win mag than H1000. It has to do with case design and application. If it mattered the armorers would be doing the loading. That hasn't happened in years and it isn't part of the mos anymore

 

[yorke-1]

I will not make a statement of fact about comparison on performance but the case capacity between a 300 Norma(not improved) and the 300 prc is a whopping 4-5 grains of H20. The difference between the 30 Nosler and the 300 Norma is a whopping 3-4. In order to use that It will have to be capable of pushing the desired bullet to the next accuracy node. In the two 30 Noslers I have had the node for a 215 is 3030-3050 in a 26" I would suspect the next node is 3150-3200. I seriously doubt the 3 grain of H20 is going to get it there but I could be wrong. I am also going to guess the 300 PRC will reach the 3030-3050 node with a little less powder but again I could be wrong. In either case I really do not want to mess with a lupua bolt head. I have not found the end life of a 30 Nosler brass at 6 firings. The only 300wm factory ammo I would personally hunt with is the Berger(abm) 215 stuff. The 210 30 Nosler has not shot well in either of my barrels. The 180s shoot but I don't shoot 30s to shoot 180s. We will see how the prc does.

The difference in usable capacity with bullets seated to the same OAl is roughly 10gr, gross case capacity is withing about 5 gr. The Norma is a shorter, fatter case so there's just more usable capacity with bullets seated to the same OAL.

I'm a big fan of the 375 Ruger case and I've got a handful of wildcats based off of it, but it just can't keep up with something like the Norma or RUM. That's fine though because it was never really intended to compete with those chamberings. The Norma needs a larger bolt face and the RUM really needs to run with an OAL of 3.800" or longer to take advantage of the extra case capacity. The PRC and Nosler are both great cartridges which offer essentially the same performance just with different head stamps. Pick you brand and go for it, just understand that there's no practical difference between the two when handloaded to similar pressures with similar OALs. The 300 Win Mag will keep up with either the Nosler or the PRC, but it just can't beat them in a true apples to apples comparison. Not that there's ever going to be enough of a difference to actually matter in the real world.

 

[yorke-1]

If they wanted something like the .300 PRC, and better than the .300 WinMag, why didn't they go with the already well-established .30 Nosler? I'm sure Nosler would cut the government some price slack on mass-amounts of .30 Nosler ammo...

Personally, I think they should look into the .28 Nosler with a high BC 200 grain FMJ for battlefield use. Flat, fast, powerful, wind-bucking, very long range capable... Just personal opinion.

My guess is that Nosler can't or won't be able to meet the production needs. Hornady is a significantly larger outfit than Nosler and likely better equipped to crank out large volumes of brass/ammo on short notice.

I'm sure that the rebated rim on the Nosler case didn't help either. It's not a big deal most of the time, but I've had a handful of rebated rimmed cases in bolt guns and every once in a while you'll get a gun that just doesn't want to feed them without a little bit of work. The RUM cases have given me more trouble than just about any other but the 6.5x284 is a close second place. I just haven't seen as many feeding "issues" with standard rimless or belted cases.

 

[FURMAN]

The difference in usable capacity with bullets seated to the same OAl is roughly 10gr, gross case capacity is withing about 5 gr. The Norma is a shorter, fatter case so there's just more usable capacity with bullets seated to the same OAL.

I'm a big fan of the 375 Ruger case and I've got a handful of wildcats based off of it, but it just can't keep up with something like the Norma or RUM. That's fine though because it was never really intended to compete with those chamberings. The Norma needs a larger bolt face and the RUM really needs to run with an OAL of 3.800" or longer to take advantage of the extra case capacity. The PRC and Nosler are both great cartridges which offer essentially the same performance just with different head stamps. Pick you brand and go for it, just understand that there's no practical difference between the two when handloaded to similar pressures with similar OALs. The 300 Win Mag will keep up with either the Nosler or the PRC, but it just can't beat them in a true apples to apples comparison. Not that there's ever going to be enough of a difference to actually matter in the real world.

Who cares if they are seated the same length. I will throat them how I want them period. That makes zero sense to me. That is just trying to tip the scale in a desired direction. I have two of the cartridges in hand and a buddy with the other. The 300 Norma is a lot shorter and seating to the same length obviously lets the bullet ride farther up the neck. You are correct in real world performance differences. On paper both of my 30 Noslers with 26" barrels were 100-150 faster than my 27" and 28" 300 wm in the accuracy nodes. That is good enough for me to think it is worth the 3-5 grains of powder. I have never built a rum because I see more people running 215s under 3050(my Nosler speeds) than over.

 

[yorke-1]

Who cares if they are seated the same length. I will throat them how I want them period. That makes zero sense to me. That is just trying to tip the scale in a desired direction. I have two of the cartridges in hand and a buddy with the other. The 300 Norma is a lot shorter and seating to the same length obviously lets the bullet ride farther up the neck. You are correct in real world performance differences. On paper both of my 30 Noslers with 26" barrels were 100-150 faster than my 27" and 28" 300 wm in the accuracy nodes. That is good enough for me to think it is worth the 3-5 grains of powder. I have never built a rum because I see more people running 215s under 3050(my Nosler speeds) than over.

Those are just based on SAAMI specs for each cartridge. The PRC is spec'd to 3.700" and the 300 Norma is 3.680". I don't love or hate the 300 Norma so I don't have any real reason to sway the numbers. I'm having a 300 PRC barrel chambered up but not because it's anything special. It just fills the gap between my 270/375 Ruger and the 338/375 Rugers that I have. Combined with the 375 Ruger that I've got and the 257/375 Ruger reamer that I've got sitting here I'd say I'm actually biased towards the Ruger case. Not because it's better than the Nosler though. I just started working with the 375 Ruger case about 10 years ago and it's easier to just have one standard parent case to work with so I can use one headspace gauge for all the different wildcats (except for the PRC which is a bit shorter).

The Nosler case wasn't really around 10 years ago, but the AR series of wildcats were and they're nearly identical to the Nosler case but predate it by close to 10 years.

 

[FURMAN]

I personally do not like comparing cases other than overfill volume. Anything else can obviously change the volume. I am hoping my 300 PRC will shoot factory ammo as well as my 6.5 prc is otherwise I would have went straight to the 300SI. We will have to compare 300prc notes.