180 Berger VLD expansion mystery

[oldmossy]

Thanks again guys for all the input.

Getting off here now. I'm off next 3 days with No computer access.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Another thought on your wound channel and exit.

Sometimes a bullet which does not expand and is not badly deformed will cavitate after penetration and then either correct or flip over before exit which would still produce a caliber size or even smaller exit. Remember bullets generally don't cut through the hide they push it till it just won't stretch any more and then the bullet pushes through and this can happen both on entry and exit. I've seen lots and lots of entry wounds smaller than the caliber used and some exit wounds as well.

Not sure what you mean by cavitate? But if you replace cavitate with tumble, this is the theory I'm leaning toward. In the case of your bullets peeing back, did they hit bone like this one? I'm finding it hard to grasp that the exposed lead core was not deformed enough after hitting bone not to leave a large hide exit.

My thoughts are that this bullet may have tumbled and when it reached the hide, it stretched it until all the pressure on the hide was being exerted by the point or tail in the tumbling process, then punched through.

OK, so for a recap,

The OP didn't find any bullet frags, but wasn't looking for any and can't say for sure that there weren't any.

Obviously the bullet did not "pencil" through so it either fragmented or tumbled.

The flesh exit and hide exit do not match in size and shape. If the bullet fragmented leaving that large of flesh exit, there should have been bullet frags under the hide which IMO, the OP should have noticed even if he wasn't looking for them. There should have also been small bits of bullet frags in the flesh of the exit hole.

The flesh exit shape is also a little odd in that it is not round which would be more consistent with fragmentation. It is more like a linear tear which is more consistent with an elongated shaped object in a sideways position.

I am not 100% certain but my tentative conclusion is that there was no expansion as there were no frags at all found. Even though the OP wasn't looking for frags, IMO he should have found some, especially under the hide at the exit.

 

[bigngreen]

With high impact speeds on a hard hit like this it can be very, very difficult to find bullet frag. I spent a couple hours mushing through an elk neck looking for bullet and frag with no exit hole, and all I found was two pieces about the size of a ball point pen ball. The best way to tell if the bullet tumbled or opened is the condition of the meat in the hole, tumble wounds will be cleaner through the muscles where as bullet frag removes muscle an leaves a rough ground appearance to the muscle at the edge of the permanent wound channel.

The exits on tumbling bullets tend to be long from what I've seen appearing as a tear in the hide. The exit wound he shows is definitely from an open bullet IMO.

 

[Pdvdh]

With high impact speeds on a hard hit like this it can be very, very difficult to find bullet frag. I spent a couple hours mushing through an elk neck looking for bullet and frag with no exit hole, and all I found was two pieces about the size of a ball point pen ball. The best way to tell if the bullet tumbled or opened is the condition of the meat in the hole, tumble wounds will be cleaner through the muscles where as bullet frag removes muscle an leaves a rough ground appearance to the muscle at the edge of the permanent wound channel.

Yes, I think this is because the expanding bullet unleashes its energy at a much higher rate than the tumbling bullet, causing more visible and permanent tissue destruction along its path - in comparison. Bullet/jacket fragments are the most certain single bit of evidence. But what you've described is also good corroborating evidence.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

With high impact speeds on a hard hit like this it can be very, very difficult to find bullet frag. I spent a couple hours mushing through an elk neck looking for bullet and frag with no exit hole, and all I found was two pieces about the size of a ball point pen ball. The best way to tell if the bullet tumbled or opened is the condition of the meat in the hole, tumble wounds will be cleaner through the muscles where as bullet frag removes muscle an leaves a rough ground appearance to the muscle at the edge of the permanent wound channel.

The exits on tumbling bullets tend to be long from what I've seen appearing as a tear in the hide. The exit wound he shows is definitely from an open bullet IMO.

Rhian, If you go back and look at the video in the other thread, you'll see that the flesh exit is exactly what you describe as a tumble wound. It is elongated and looks more like a tear. I haven't seen many exits from fragmenting bullets, but the few I have seen leave a big "round" hole in both the flesh and hide.

I can buy the idea that maybe bullet frags would be tough to find throughout the wound channel, but there should have been numerous frags under the hide to account for the size of wound and they should have been easily detectable. that is my biggest hang up with the expanding bullet theory here not to mention the shape and condition of the flesh exit.

 

[Kennibear]

Let's try not to get hung up on the size of the exit hole through the off side hide. Surely you all have noticed the stretch of living hide when you dress a game animal. The on-side hide is backed by the critter but off-side is unhindered from moving much like if you take a pinch of flesh and check how flabby you are. Stretched thin the bullet would punch a hole that would collapse to a smaller size after it passed through.

I don't think you can value the hide's exit hole for insight very much. But the flesh wound under that hole is a telling tale. I tend to look at the meat and not the leather.

 

[bigngreen]

I looked at that Mark but it's not what I'm talking about, I'll have to look back at my pictures but the exit in the hide on the bull I killed this year looked like a 1.5 in tear and did not have a ragged/puckered edge to and it's very easy to see the bullet came out side ways. To me the exit on this buck looked normal for a bullet that almost vaporized and only the base cup and some frag blew out the hole OR only the tip blew and the shank and some frag blew the hole out.
When we shot all those super hard 6.5 bullets this year we actually would catch them exiting backwards in jugs and every one tumbled but NONE tumbled till we passed 600 yards with them and the impact speed dropped. We would find perfect little mushrooms on the tops of the shanks so basically the nose would blow.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I looked at that Mark but it's not what I'm talking about, I'll have to look back at my pictures but the exit in the hide on the bull I killed this year looked like a 1.5 in tear and did not have a ragged/puckered edge to and it's very easy to see the bullet came out side ways. To me the exit on this buck looked normal for a bullet that almost vaporized and only the base cup and some frag blew out the hole OR only the tip blew and the shank and some frag blew the hole out.
When we shot all those super hard 6.5 bullets this year we actually would catch them exiting backwards in jugs and every one tumbled but NONE tumbled till we passed 600 yards with them and the impact speed dropped. We would find perfect little mushrooms on the tops of the shanks so basically the nose would blow.

Yes, but that IS what I a talking about Now like I said before, I am not 100% certain the bullet tumbled and did not fragment. But the shape and condition of the flesh exit are not consistent, (from my limited experience), with fragmenting bullet performance AND the fragments that caused the exit hole should have been under the hide and very easy to detect. Maybe they were overlooked, but either they exited the hide with the piece that left the hide exit or they were left under the hide... one or the other.

In your case the tumbled bullet left an elongated hide hole. In this case it might have arrived at the hide sideways and stretched the hide while still tumbling until the point or tail punched through. A bit of a stretch for an explanation, but from where I am sitting and what I have seen, the best explanation so far.

 

[WildRose]

Not sure what you mean by cavitate? But if you replace cavitate with tumble, this is the theory I'm leaning toward. In the case of your bullets peeing back, did they hit bone like this one? I'm finding it hard to grasp that the exposed lead core was not deformed enough after hitting bone not to leave a large hide exit.

Yaw/pitch basically where the tip is slowed and the tail is moving up and down or side to side not quite tipping over enough to tumble completely. I've see bullets for example that hit a twig just short of a target go through the target side ways and if you watch enough slow motion video of ballistic gel tests you'll see some bullets exhibiting that effect. I've also seen them just end up rolling over with the front and rear having swapped ends. Energy seeks the path of least resistance so it just doesn't always maintain that straight line attitude all the way through. Think about a car with weak rear brakes and normal front brakes on ice. You get on the brakes lightly and the rear end fishtails and the car then may end up sideways till it finally comes to a stop.

My thoughts are that this bullet may have tumbled and when it reached the hide, it stretched it until all the pressure on the hide was being exerted by the point or tail in the tumbling process, then punched through.

We may both be thinking the same thing and just not expressing it quite the same.

OK, so for a recap,

The OP didn't find any bullet frags, but wasn't looking for any and can't say for sure that there weren't any.

Obviously the bullet did not "pencil" through so it either fragmented or tumbled.

Ditto.

The flesh exit and hide exit do not match in size and shape. If the bullet fragmented leaving that large of flesh exit, there should have been bullet frags under the hide which IMO, the OP should have noticed even if he wasn't looking for them. There should have also been small bits of bullet frags in the flesh of the exit hole.

The flesh exit shape is also a little odd in that it is not round which would be more consistent with fragmentation. It is more like a linear tear which is more consistent with an elongated shaped object in a sideways position.

We are on the same path... .

I am not 100% certain but my tentative conclusion is that there was no expansion as there were no frags at all found. Even though the OP wasn't looking for frags, IMO he should have found some, especially under the hide at the exit.

Not quite with you there. I think it could be that or there was a peeling back of the petals so to speak without them tearing off. Slight mushroomig without any significant bullet break up.

Lots of possibilities and we just can't nail it down without looking at a recovered bullet.

 

[WildRose]

Yes, but that IS what I a talking about Now like I said before, I am not 100% certain the bullet tumbled and did not fragment. But the shape and condition of the flesh exit are not consistent, (from my limited experience), with fragmenting bullet performance AND the fragments that caused the exit hole should have been under the hide and very easy to detect. Maybe they were overlooked, but either they exited the hide with the piece that left the hide exit or they were left under the hide... one or the other.

In your case the tumbled bullet left an elongated hide hole. In this case it might have arrived at the hide sideways and stretched the hide while still tumbling until the point or tail punched through. A bit of a stretch for an explanation, but from where I am sitting and what I have seen, the best explanation so far.

One more.

I've seen through these threads a few of the bullets that did not open, but did "bend" into something approaching a crescent shape. Such a bullet would end up coming out side ways in a lot of cases rather than tumbling end to end.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

One more.

I've seen through these threads a few of the bullets that did not open, but did "bend" into something approaching a crescent shape. Such a bullet would end up coming out side ways in a lot of cases rather than tumbling end to end.

A bullet like the 180 VLD would certainly have bent if it started to tumble, especially if it hit bone (twice), Whether or not it could have oriented point or tail first on the way out, I don't know but for me at this point, it's the best plausible answer.

Lots of possibilities and we just can't nail it down without looking at a recovered bullet.

I assume you meant to type "can't" and if so, that pretty much sums it up, although, if the OP would have found fragments, this thread would have ended a couple of pages ago.

 

[Pdvdh]

To my knowledge and recollection, the banana bullets have always (or primarily) been low velocity impacts. Always, with respect to Elkaholic's expansion testing of Berger VLDs. A member in the NW Territory recovered a 210 VLD from a smallish bull moose at long range (like 880 yds) from a 300 Win Mag and he provided photos of a banana bullet. The bullet that struck this deer was from a 7mm RUM at high velocity. It hit bone both upon entrance and again just before exit. Dunno what the strikes on leg bones does to the banana bullet theory. But Elkaholic has repeatedly recovered banana shaped VLDs at impact velocity less than ~2000 fps in the media he's tested them on.

Striking bone at high velocity should have sheared off at least the leading hollow jacket tip on this VLD.

 

[WildRose]

A bullet like the 180 VLD would certainly have bent if it started to tumble, especially if it hit bone (twice), Whether or not it could have oriented point or tail first on the way out, I don't know but for me at this point, it's the best plausible answer.



I assume you meant to type "can't" and if so, that pretty much sums it up, although, if the OP would have found fragments, this thread would have ended a couple of pages ago.

Yep, Dang it, I'll fix that.

 

[one crazy kid]

I shot my first buck at about 30yds with a 270 wsm topped with what I believe was a 168 grain Berger, I did not hit any bone on the way in penciled threw the lungs, what was most interesting to me was I could stick my thumb threw the heart.