15x power binos

[WildRose]

Interesting that something that is physically impossible has been proven in the field. One of my .com friends went to Africa. The guide put him on an animal right at last light. He had a 1-6X scope and could not see it at 1X. The guide almost angrily told him, "Turn up the magnification and shoot it!" He turned the scope up to 6X and could easily see it well enough to shoot it.

Unless you've rewritten the laws of physics it simply cannot be true.

 

[yobuck]

I have proved many times to anyone who comes by that exit pupil is worthless for evaluating optics. The idea that higher magnification will not last longer is constantly proven wrong by anyone who does a side by side with two equal quality optics. If anyone wants I will post side by side findings.

Im of the opinion, that the sum of the diameter of the objective lens, divided by the diameter of the exit pupil, determines the power of that optic.
So in that regard it has meaning as well as in others such as field.
I cant speak about low light situations because I have no experience hunting under those situations.
But I (think) that If I did, especially at closer distances, id be relying on a very good rifle scope rather than going back and forth between separate optics when timing could be so critical.
But then timing is always critical when hunting.
I don't walk around in places where the OP walks either but he does, and that makes a difference.

However all that aside, if we take the best quality spotting scope having a 60mm objective lens, it will be clearer to use with 15x than it will be with 20 or 30x under (normal conditions), and 40x will be all but impossible for full time use.
Thats not to say that 15x is better for spotting bullet holes because that requires power, and im talking about clarity, not power.
But put the 30 or 40x in an 80 mm scope and it becomes a different story as for clarity, and a 100 mm different yet again.
I doubt that to this day, finer optics have ever been made than those by the Germans and Japs during WW2. All they lacked then was coated lenses, as it wasent being done back then at least until later in the war. The 10x80 German flack glasses were built for observing shell bursts of the big artillery guns fired mostly at night at enemy bombers.
They were/are 10x with large diameter eyepiece glass, a large exit pupil, and 80 mm objective lenses.
So again, low power compared to overall size.
Same with the big Jap navy ship binnocs, 120 mm objectives with 20x eyepieces.
Some were 15x with 80mm objectives and some had 150mm objectives with 18x eyepieces.
A very few and very rarely seen others had 180 mm objectives with 2 separate eyepieces, with the highest power being 50.
There are a few of those being used by PA hunters today.
Lots of guys used all those mentioned for hunting including myself, and some still do.
But point is that even in high quality optics with huge objectives, lower power equals a clearer image, and on some days much more than others.
I had a set of 15x eyepieces custom made for my 77 mm Kowa spotters and they are the ones I use most, although I have 20 30 and 40x sets along while hunting also.
I have a good but small 50 mm spotter here in FL. that has a 10x30 zoom eyepiece. I keep it on my boat to spy on other fishermen, and it has paid dividends. lol
I have some other glass here im gonna try also on a tripod during low light. Im probably no more than about 450 miles further south than the OP, so conditions as for air quality should be very close.

 

[Austin Dial]

Unless you've rewritten the laws of physics it simply cannot be true.

Only help I've received from WildRose is that he obviously has his doctorates in Physics, probably also hunts like a physics. Was in a club with a gentleman who had his doctorates degree in engineering and if you could imagine he hunted like an engineer if that makes sense. On the other hand science is science, but real life hands on experience topples that bud. Sorry to break your physics heart

 

[Rich Coyle]

Austin Dial,
I decided to post some info from my records that support your experience. The first one shows one doesn't get what he pays for. He sold his z6. The second one shows how much just turning up the magnification works. These are not theory, but real world comparisons. I used to work with an engineer. He could not get past theory. He and I would design something. When it hit the floor he had real trouble when it didn't function exactly the way he thought it would. I just made the needed changes and usually increased production: No fuss. No muss.


9/2/17 Swarovski z8i 2.3-18X56, Swarovski z6 5-30X50, Bushnell 6500 4 ½-30X50 (smoky and hot today)



Today a shooting range friend brought two of his optics to compare with my Bushnell 6500 4 ½-30X50. It gave me a chance to check out a couple Swarovskis. One was a Swarovski z6 5-30X50 and the other was Swarovski z8i 2.3-18X5. They all have 30mm tubes. The Swarovskis are rifle mounted so I didn't get a chance to weigh them. I didn't have much time so I went right to the 13" wide deer antlers 131 yards away in the woods for low light comparison.

He was a little late so the sun was already behind the western hills. The way I determine if I can continue with a particular optic is can I see the first long tine on the left enough to shoot the deer carrying them. Consequently he had to raise the magnification on his z6 5-30X50 until he could see the antlers clearly. It required 15X at 7:05PM. He said, "I always knew that Swarovski wasn't very good."

Then I adjusted the other two to the same magnification setting of 15X. The z6 lasted until 7:13PM. The Bushnell went down at 7:24PM. That is eleven minutes longer for something costing about 1/3. When it came to the other Swarovski it was like a college player against a professional. The z8i was that much better. Bright and clear. Light right to the edge with almost no ring. The fantastic Swarovski z81 lasted until 7:44PM! Twenty minutes longer than a very good scope. That is enough time to actually make a successful hunt if you have a very wary quarry which waits until almost dark before it moves out to feed or water.

We both agreed on the times for all three scopes.

By the way when I compared the Bushnell 6500 4 1/2-30X50 set on 13X with my Minox 13X56, the Bushnell lasted two minutes longer. That means two 56mm objectives didn't last as long a single 50mm objective. Tell me about exit pupil.
When I did the same thing with the Minox 15X58 the Minox lasted six minutes longer than the Bushnell with both on 15X.


8/23/17 Bushnell 6500 4 ½-30X50 DOA, Leupold VX-5 CDS-ZL2 3- 15X56 (smokey and hot)

Today the new VX-5 arrived. It is a delight to look through. I adjusted the ocular until the reticle was as sharp as I could get it. Then I placed the VX-5 (21.9 oz) on a sandbag and aimed it at the military chart 127 yards away. The magnification was set on 15X. The side focus was adjusted until it was as good as I could get it in the 95* temp. Finally I could see 3-2. Then I brought out the 6500 (22.6 ox) and set it on 15X. I could make out 3-3 and then 3-2 and then 3-3. By turning it to 16X I could easily see 3-3 without any wavering. More magnification is a wonderful thing.

Next is the low light comparison. I set them both on 12X to look at the deer antlers 131 yards away in the woods. The antlers are small at 13" wide. To my astonishment the VX5 smoked the 6500 by six minutes! This is more like the Nightforce 12-42X56. The 6500 went down at 8:00PM. The VX-5 lasted until 8:06PM! The reason I'm so surprised is the Swarovski z5 5-25X52, the Leupold VX-6 4-24X52 and the 6500 all went down in the same minute when I compared them. Positively I discovered higher magnification allows a scope to last longer than lower magnification on the same scope in low light so I turned up the 6500 to 16X and could easily see the antlers again.

 

[Austin Dial]

Austin Dial,
I decided to post some info from my records that support your experience. The first one shows one doesn't get what he pays for. He sold his z6. The second one shows how much just turning up the magnification works. These are not theory, but real world comparisons. I used to work with an engineer. He could not get past theory. He and I would design something. When it hit the floor he had real trouble when it didn't function exactly the way he thought it would. I just made the needed changes and usually increased production: No fuss. No muss.


9/2/17 Swarovski z8i 2.3-18X56, Swarovski z6 5-30X50, Bushnell 6500 4 ½-30X50 (smoky and hot today)



Today a shooting range friend brought two of his optics to compare with my Bushnell 6500 4 ½-30X50. It gave me a chance to check out a couple Swarovskis. One was a Swarovski z6 5-30X50 and the other was Swarovski z8i 2.3-18X5. They all have 30mm tubes. The Swarovskis are rifle mounted so I didn't get a chance to weigh them. I didn't have much time so I went right to the 13" wide deer antlers 131 yards away in the woods for low light comparison.

He was a little late so the sun was already behind the western hills. The way I determine if I can continue with a particular optic is can I see the first long tine on the left enough to shoot the deer carrying them. Consequently he had to raise the magnification on his z6 5-30X50 until he could see the antlers clearly. It required 15X at 7:05PM. He said, "I always knew that Swarovski wasn't very good."

Then I adjusted the other two to the same magnification setting of 15X. The z6 lasted until 7:13PM. The Bushnell went down at 7:24PM. That is eleven minutes longer for something costing about 1/3. When it came to the other Swarovski it was like a college player against a professional. The z8i was that much better. Bright and clear. Light right to the edge with almost no ring. The fantastic Swarovski z81 lasted until 7:44PM! Twenty minutes longer than a very good scope. That is enough time to actually make a successful hunt if you have a very wary quarry which waits until almost dark before it moves out to feed or water.

We both agreed on the times for all three scopes.

By the way when I compared the Bushnell 6500 4 1/2-30X50 set on 13X with my Minox 13X56, the Bushnell lasted two minutes longer. That means two 56mm objectives didn't last as long a single 50mm objective. Tell me about exit pupil.
When I did the same thing with the Minox 15X58 the Minox lasted six minutes longer than the Bushnell with both on 15X.


8/23/17 Bushnell 6500 4 ½-30X50 DOA, Leupold VX-5 CDS-ZL2 3- 15X56 (smokey and hot)

Today the new VX-5 arrived. It is a delight to look through. I adjusted the ocular until the reticle was as sharp as I could get it. Then I placed the VX-5 (21.9 oz) on a sandbag and aimed it at the military chart 127 yards away. The magnification was set on 15X. The side focus was adjusted until it was as good as I could get it in the 95* temp. Finally I could see 3-2. Then I brought out the 6500 (22.6 ox) and set it on 15X. I could make out 3-3 and then 3-2 and then 3-3. By turning it to 16X I could easily see 3-3 without any wavering. More magnification is a wonderful thing.

Next is the low light comparison. I set them both on 12X to look at the deer antlers 131 yards away in the woods. The antlers are small at 13" wide. To my astonishment the VX5 smoked the 6500 by six minutes! This is more like the Nightforce 12-42X56. The 6500 went down at 8:00PM. The VX-5 lasted until 8:06PM! The reason I'm so surprised is the Swarovski z5 5-25X52, the Leupold VX-6 4-24X52 and the 6500 all went down in the same minute when I compared them. Positively I discovered higher magnification allows a scope to last longer than lower magnification on the same scope in low light so I turned up the 6500 to 16X and could easily see the antlers again.

Thank you and yes your study is exactly what I'd be looking for in my hunting situations. In the woods not in open terrain trying to decipher between deer. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Buck Buster]

It may be bigger but it cannot be clearer, the physics simply won't allow for it.

Think of the internal lens which is the focal point of your magnifier.

Nothing you can do will increase the light of that image unless you apply an external light source to the target.

Each time you increase your magnification you are dividing the available light.

Think in terms of pixels. At low mag you have say a 1088P image, at 12x you now have roughly something like a 300p image.

Even though it's larger it's becoming more and more pixelated.

In those last few seconds of light when you can no longer pick up your target on high mag simply start reeling the magnification back and as the image becomes smaller it becomes clearer and brighter.

Have looked through many glasses used for long range shooting and it is very plane to see that those glasses with high exit pupils are much brighter, and you have no trouble seeing 3" spikes at 1000 yards at the end of legal shooting hours with the big 20 or 25 power 120mm binoculars ! The 30 power in this same glass at the same time makes things look a little fuzzy and gray the exit pupil is only 4 ! Prof that the larger exit pupil means there will be more light available, in other words you will be able to see better in first and last light of the day ! Glasses I have owned with an exit pupil of 5 or more have allowed me to see well at all legal shooting hours in PA ! They are 1/2 hr. before sunrise till 1/2 hr. after sunset ! I am a firm believer in having glasses with at least an exit pupil of 5 for seeing in first and last light !

 

[Buck Buster]

I hate to argue back and forth, look this sight up and read the scientific evidence as to the larger exit pupil meaning better binoculars ! Better in poor light ! FACT ! Here is the site, just for those that would like to know the truth about exit pupils and what they mean ! www.bestbinocularsreviews.com

 

[WildBillG]

Rich Coyle I hate to burst your optic bubble but on a hot day with mirage more magnification is not your friend. You also state that the better glass of the Swaro z8 beats your unbeatable Bushnell. This brings me to more power being better when light fades. You may see a larger image but it will not be brighter then at a lower power. Could you please show us some proof that higher power optics will brighten the picture we see as light fades.

 

[yobuck]

Have looked through many glasses used for long range shooting and it is very plane to see that those glasses with high exit pupils are much brighter, and you have no trouble seeing 3" spikes at 1000 yards at the end of legal shooting hours with the big 20 or 25 power 120mm binoculars ! The 30 power in this same glass at the same time makes things look a little fuzzy and gray the exit pupil is only 4 ! Prof that the larger exit pupil means there will be more light available, in other words you will be able to see better in first and last light of the day ! Glasses I have owned with an exit pupil of 5 or more have allowed me to see well at all legal shooting hours in PA ! They are 1/2 hr. before sunrise till 1/2 hr. after sunset ! I am a firm believer in having glasses with at least an exit pupil of 5 for seeing in first and last light !

From a technical standpoint, lets say you/we are all correct.
But here we have a guy sharing the results he obtained by actuall in the field testing of products that perform in the exact manner and time frame the op is looking for. If it works it works, how can there be any argument?
Problem solved, good luck to the op in bagging his buck.

 

[WildBillG]

The problem is YoBuck that the op has used top quality scopes in 15 power range and he could not see well enough. How does he figure the bino's will help him. He needs the proper corrective lenses for his eyes to see any better. This is whether he stays with 10x bino's or goes to 12 or 15 power. I can only guess but a 200 dollar pair of glasses would likely solve his whole problem.

 

[WildRose]

Rich Coyle I hate to burst your optic bubble but on a hot day with mirage more magnification is not your friend. You also state that the better glass of the Swaro z8 beats your unbeatable Bushnell. This brings me to more power being better when light fades. You may see a larger image but it will not be brighter then at a lower power. Could you please show us some proof that higher power optics will brighten the picture we see as light fades.

They can't. You only have x amount of light to work with and for every power you increase magnification you are dividing the reining light that can be focused on the exit pupil.

Until the laws of physics are rewritten it simply isn't possible.

The higher the magnification the higher the light requirement to resolve the image.

 

[Rich Coyle]

Rich Coyle I hate to burst your optic bubble but on a hot day with mirage more magnification is not your friend. You also state that the better glass of the Swaro z8 beats your unbeatable Bushnell. This brings me to more power being better when light fades. You may see a larger image but it will not be brighter then at a lower power. Could you please show us some proof that higher power optics will brighten the picture we see as light fades.

You are creating a strawman and expecting me to respond to it instead of facts. No one here that I can remember has even mentioned hot days or mirage. I mentioned the z8 beat my Bushnell because I didn't turn it up. Post where I posted the Bushnell is "unbeatable", please. I was comparing one magnification setting for both scopes. Also I never said anything about "higher power optics will brighten the picture we see as light fades." I said if you turn up the magnification you can see the target again; until there is not enough light to see at all. Here is an example:

March 31, 2014 Nighforce NXS 5.5-22X56 Swarovski z5 5-25X52

Nothing like side by side comparisons to eliminate ignorant prejudice opinions for a basis to purchase a scope. My gunsmith is delighted with his purchase of the Nightforce for his heavyweight long range .338 RUM.

This evening as low light set in I put out the two scopes. Before you continue reading guess which one did better. I guess I will define better as the one that shows the most detail and lasts the longest. I noticed the Nightforce was easier to get a full "picture". I guess it has a better or bigger eye box.

For those who have not seen a photo of my "Can you read this?" the letters on line #6 are about 1/4" high. The chart was 72 yards away. The weather was heavy clouds at 6:49 PM when I started.

I fiddled with both scopes to get the best clarity and recorded the time and magnification settings when each went down. Once I could no longer read the line, I turned up the magnification till I could.

Time: Nightforce Swarovski

6:49 14 3/4X 20X

7:01: 15 3/4X 22 1/2X

7:20 18X 23X

7:34 20X 25X

At 7:37 I had to turn up the Nightforce to 21X. The Swarovski didn't allow me to read any of the last line. A minute later I could not read anything with the Nightforce even when I switched it to 22X. There was just not enough light to use the scope. The Nightforce lasted three minutes longer than the Swarovski.

 

[Rich Coyle]

They can't. You only have x amount of light to work with and for every power you increase magnification you are dividing the reining light that can be focused on the exit pupil.

Until the laws of physics are rewritten it simply isn't possible.

The higher the magnification the higher the light requirement to resolve the image.

Exactly! As long as there is enough light to use the scope you can turn it up. When there is not enough light for your scope, you are then out of luck (or should I post "light"?).

 

[Riflehunter1776]

Unless you've rewritten the laws of physics it simply cannot be true.

a certain web site (who I will not name) that discusses optics has a few people who vehemently insist that you need to turn up the magnification as the light dims. I've argued with them too, as have others, and got nowhere.

I've performed my own low light tests with a number of high quality optics. In every case, as the light dims, the magnification needs to be turned down to gather light and see clearly.

Of course, I'm not talking about 20 minutes before sunset "dark". I'm talking about the last possible moments of shooting light.