memtb
Well-Known Member
Or anything else that can be carried and shoulder fired!
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12GA Rounds for Grizz?
- Thread starter Backcountry_IDN
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Agree the "foster" isn't what I'd use either, and the 450 Bush is not a bad choice with a ballistic profile of a 250-grain, .452-inch bullet traveling at just over 2,200 feet per second with a muzzle energy of 2,600 foot-pounds with that stated, the Brenneke Black Magic Magnum 3", weight 602 grains, 1502 FPS, and 3014 ft-lbs at the muzzle is still looking pretty good. I think it's what feels right and stay within the range of what one would feel, would work, from the available information on hand about the aforementioned subject; smacking Big Bear at "close range" for protection... with perhaps only one or two shots, three I'd think if you were on the lucky side... they are fast.
Brenneke also has a Magnum Crush slug that weighs 656 grains (1½ ounces) and it delivers 3,800 ft/lb energy at the muzzle, the vel's are over 1600 fps. But... if I understand it right the Black Magic 602gr is a somewhat harder lead. I don't really think all copper slugs are the solution, great for Deer, but... for Big Bears?
Just my 0.2 Cheers
WildRose
Well-Known Member
Those make a lot of sense for home/camp bear defense, but they would sure wear on you toting either for a day of fishing.Agree the "foster" isn't what I'd use either, and the 450 Bush is not a bad choice with a ballistic profile of a 250-grain, .452-inch bullet traveling at just over 2,200 feet per second with a muzzle energy of 2,600 foot-pounds with that stated, the Brenneke Black Magic Magnum 3", weight 602 grains, 1502 FPS, and 3014 ft-lbs at the muzzle is still looking pretty good. I think it's what feels right and stay within the range of what one would feel, would work, from the available information on hand about the aforementioned subject; smacking Big Bear at "close range" for protection... with perhaps only one or two shots, three I'd think if you were on the lucky side... they are fast.
Brenneke also has a Magnum Crush slug that weighs 656 grains (1½ ounces) and it delivers 3,800 ft/lb energy at the muzzle, the vel's are over 1600 fps. But... if I understand it right the Black Magic 602gr is a somewhat harder lead. I don't really think all copper slugs are the solution, great for Deer, but... for Big Bears?
Just my 0.2 Cheers
You have a good point, ounces equal pounds, pounds equal pain, but... I didn't mind at all, hiking back into some of those small lakes and creeks for arctic char & grayling, Northern Alaska is a great place, and very unforgiving in a whole lot of ways. Personally, in the bush it was never off my shoulder or out of my hands, funny...never saw a Grizzly or Black, and saw a lot of signs but no Bear... that's what really bothered me...
Cheers.
Did you hear about the High School boys attacked by a Grizzly? One was getting beat pretty good so the other joined the fray. He grabbed the bears ear and it turned on him. Both boys were wrestlers in high school. Finally the bear lost interest and left. The boys survived a fight with a grizzly. Wounded, yes. But alive.
I have a Mod 29, 44mag and practiced a lot with it. I shoot full house loads only in it. I got so I could hit a small pie plate at 100yds, iron sights, off-hand. It took me a long time to learn how to shoot the gun. Therein lies the problem. I sensed the beginings of carpal tunnel setting in so I had to cut back. I used to shoot 50 rounds or more a day plus several other hand guns each visit to the range.
The target is from S&W.
The target is from S&W.
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WildRose
Well-Known Member
I guess the lessons here are to never give up, keep your vitals protected, grab him by the ears (or bite them) and pray you survive if that's all you have.
Two extremely lucky young men. I heard a good interview with him the other night I believe on Tucker Carlson and I think the whole thing is probably posted on Fox Nation.
ers-were-092224889.html
Either God intervened or that bear was tired and just wanted to go home.
meatyrem
Well-Known Member
I only mentioned copper as it's much tougher than lead and would hold together if hitting bone and would penetrate very well. My federal copper 1oz always penetrate through and never have I recovered one.Agree the "foster" isn't what I'd use either, and the 450 Bush is not a bad choice with a ballistic profile of a 250-grain, .452-inch bullet traveling at just over 2,200 feet per second with a muzzle energy of 2,600 foot-pounds with that stated, the Brenneke Black Magic Magnum 3", weight 602 grains, 1502 FPS, and 3014 ft-lbs at the muzzle is still looking pretty good. I think it's what feels right and stay within the range of what one would feel, would work, from the available information on hand about the aforementioned subject; smacking Big Bear at "close range" for protection... with perhaps only one or two shots, three I'd think if you were on the lucky side... they are fast.
Brenneke also has a Magnum Crush slug that weighs 656 grains (1½ ounces) and it delivers 3,800 ft/lb energy at the muzzle, the vel's are over 1600 fps. But... if I understand it right the Black Magic 602gr is a somewhat harder lead. I don't really think all copper slugs are the solution, great for Deer, but... for Big Bears?
Just my 0.2 Cheers
WildRose
Well-Known Member
You really can't beat solid copper for penetration with equal weight bullets/slugs.
WildRose
Well-Known Member
Speaking of bear stoppers. I actually came across a few Browning BAR's in .338 WM and there are several 10mm carbines. The ASR survival rifle is very light and easily packable.
Agree, copper is harder, but... how big would you say the slug would have to be to give it really great penetration, you know the weight and length dimension... we know that the diameter of the 12ga is .729 inches. I wouldn't think you'd want to expand that slug it would just shorten the penetration in a big animal. I believe Federal had a "solid" copper "no expansion" slug at one time, something like 437grs aka 1oz at 1500 fps and it was a flop if I'm not mistaken. I think nearly all, if not all 12ga copper slugs, other than perhaps some specialty one-off versions are HP and/or expansion of some type... I would think if big "solid" copper slugs were worth the weight and material they'd be more popular. I also think the real money would be in a Teflon bronze sabot slug, but... then ATF might have something to say about that., maybe?
Here's one that might work in brass... see the video.
Also in the video, one of the reasons ATF might jump into any type of real production of super hard slugs, so that's just my thoughts on our conversation, enjoy the video. Cheers
Here's one that might work in brass... see the video.
Also in the video, one of the reasons ATF might jump into any type of real production of super hard slugs, so that's just my thoughts on our conversation, enjoy the video. Cheers
meatyrem
Well-Known Member
Wow. Never seen those before. I think those would be devastating stopping power for big bear even if they happened to not hit straight. I personally think the rifling was too slow for it for proper stabilization.
As for the copper being hollow point they act as typical Barnes copper that expand out so far but still have great penetration. I've used both Barnes slugs and foster slugs of all brands and designs over the years (as that's all we were allowed since I started hunting until recent years) and most if not all lead slugs pancaked and broke apart with very few pass throughs meaning basically perfect broadside whitetail deer lung shot. My point is even deer as small bodied as they are although ended up dead, still devastated the slugs used on them. Not only have I used copper slugs in shotguns I have almost exclusively used them in muzzleloader too and only found two recovered as it was a quartering to or away and hit one or both shoulders. The mushroomed copper slug was not mushroomed all that much larger than the diameter of the slug itself. When it comes to big bear raging in my direction I would not feel overly confident with the all lead slugs especially if hitting bone
unless maybe it's a form of hardened lead otherwise I'm going to make sure I have something that holds together (copper-bonded) and penetrates well to reach vitals and break bones for stopping.
As for the copper being hollow point they act as typical Barnes copper that expand out so far but still have great penetration. I've used both Barnes slugs and foster slugs of all brands and designs over the years (as that's all we were allowed since I started hunting until recent years) and most if not all lead slugs pancaked and broke apart with very few pass throughs meaning basically perfect broadside whitetail deer lung shot. My point is even deer as small bodied as they are although ended up dead, still devastated the slugs used on them. Not only have I used copper slugs in shotguns I have almost exclusively used them in muzzleloader too and only found two recovered as it was a quartering to or away and hit one or both shoulders. The mushroomed copper slug was not mushroomed all that much larger than the diameter of the slug itself. When it comes to big bear raging in my direction I would not feel overly confident with the all lead slugs especially if hitting bone
unless maybe it's a form of hardened lead otherwise I'm going to make sure I have something that holds together (copper-bonded) and penetrates well to reach vitals and break bones for stopping.
memtb
Well-Known Member
My opinion on the Russian Penetrator (and others of similar design) slug, yes extreme penetration……but minimal damage due to design.
There is a reason that the slower moving cartridges are using wide metplat bullets…..tissue damage, permanent wound channel, and shock transmission!
A pointed bullet when hitting flesh makes a relatively small opening in the flesh, the flesh is pushed aside allowing passage of the projectile and rapidly closes behind the projectile. There is minimal tissue damage as compared to a wide metplat projectile, which translates into less permanent tissue damage and consequently much less bleeding from the wound.
In summary……much like handguns/big bore rifles, the hard (less deforestation), heavy (for increased penetration), and wide metplat (maximum tissue disruption) is far more desirable than a sharply pointed, non-expanding projectile ! memtb
There is a reason that the slower moving cartridges are using wide metplat bullets…..tissue damage, permanent wound channel, and shock transmission!
A pointed bullet when hitting flesh makes a relatively small opening in the flesh, the flesh is pushed aside allowing passage of the projectile and rapidly closes behind the projectile. There is minimal tissue damage as compared to a wide metplat projectile, which translates into less permanent tissue damage and consequently much less bleeding from the wound.
In summary……much like handguns/big bore rifles, the hard (less deforestation), heavy (for increased penetration), and wide metplat (maximum tissue disruption) is far more desirable than a sharply pointed, non-expanding projectile ! memtb
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I owned a 454 Cas. It would be a one-shot deal on a charging bear.
Large bones take the weight with speed, plus penetration.
Purchase or make or make your own slugs, hard cast with 50/50 wheel weights and linotype. Push the slugs hard with Steel powder or Long Shot powder, AND you will have to break bones or hit the central nervous system on a hard charge. I would opt for at least a 2-shot extension on my mag tube extension on my 12 ga.
Most important, PRACTICE with those heavy loads so that the recoil will not surprise you. You may end up getting a different shotgun, adding a Limbsaver recoil pad.
Large meplat gets the job done, we learned this on deer and large hogs.
Lighter slugs will have the tendency to deflect off of large bones, no getting around the Physics of the specific gravity of Copper vs lead. When copper weighs as much as lead, you may need a faster twist on the shotgun barrel or rifled choke tube.
Hand guns, first, it is not practical to carry a hand gun like a 44 Auto Mag, and I had one. 10mm with hard cast pushed hard is a minimum, and a 45 Super would be an option. 44 Mag revolvers are often hard to recover from on the recoil and sight acquisition as I learned hunting hogs and coyotes with them. Second and third shots from 44 Mag revolvers are often nothing more than a Hail Mary. I have had a dozen 44 mags at least, All ruger versions, many smith variants, and Dan Wessons that I shot comp with.
Your personal recoil experiences with a shotgun will vary, and since your life is on the line, it will be worth your while to Practice with a few different shotguns. Ithaca 37's just beat my brains out on 1 1/2 oz loads, so much so that I was anticipating the recoil and developed a hard flinch. Went to a 870, and found home sweet home with a Browning BPS. We were hunting coyotes with shotguns with 1 5/8 oz to 2 oz of Buckshot at 1300 fps+, hand loads. Some people that are not used to shooting heavy recoil guns, have one heck of a time managing recoil and sight acquisition on running, trotting coyotes....I cannot stress this fact enough. I would ask them after they had emptied the shotgun at a running coyote at 30 yards where they were aiming, and they said that they had no idea. I then took these good men out, set up gallon milk jugs at 40-15 yards, and had them start on the longest shot, and work their way toward the closest shot, as fast as they could with accuracy. The results were amazing with this practice, but all men gained confidence and/or found they shot a different shotgun better than another due to GUN FIT. Also, large white beade sights or High Vis sights helped tremendously with all of us.
The most popular shotguns I had were two Ithaca Auto Mag 10ga, Beretta 390 was second, and the most popular pump was the Browning BpS, in spite of its weight.
Most never realize that you may have to lead a charging bear. If you stop your swing, you shoot behind them every time, without exception. So, Practice, and muscle memory is a great thing.
You will never forget the experience of hearing a bear's breathing, and grunts, while clacking it's teeth, coming in hard. Don't look at their eyes, you may freeze if you do.
I had a retired Navy Captain tell me that that hard-charging black bear I called in was a worse experience than a MIG attack during the Korean War.
Large bones take the weight with speed, plus penetration.
Purchase or make or make your own slugs, hard cast with 50/50 wheel weights and linotype. Push the slugs hard with Steel powder or Long Shot powder, AND you will have to break bones or hit the central nervous system on a hard charge. I would opt for at least a 2-shot extension on my mag tube extension on my 12 ga.
Most important, PRACTICE with those heavy loads so that the recoil will not surprise you. You may end up getting a different shotgun, adding a Limbsaver recoil pad.
Large meplat gets the job done, we learned this on deer and large hogs.
Lighter slugs will have the tendency to deflect off of large bones, no getting around the Physics of the specific gravity of Copper vs lead. When copper weighs as much as lead, you may need a faster twist on the shotgun barrel or rifled choke tube.
Hand guns, first, it is not practical to carry a hand gun like a 44 Auto Mag, and I had one. 10mm with hard cast pushed hard is a minimum, and a 45 Super would be an option. 44 Mag revolvers are often hard to recover from on the recoil and sight acquisition as I learned hunting hogs and coyotes with them. Second and third shots from 44 Mag revolvers are often nothing more than a Hail Mary. I have had a dozen 44 mags at least, All ruger versions, many smith variants, and Dan Wessons that I shot comp with.
Your personal recoil experiences with a shotgun will vary, and since your life is on the line, it will be worth your while to Practice with a few different shotguns. Ithaca 37's just beat my brains out on 1 1/2 oz loads, so much so that I was anticipating the recoil and developed a hard flinch. Went to a 870, and found home sweet home with a Browning BPS. We were hunting coyotes with shotguns with 1 5/8 oz to 2 oz of Buckshot at 1300 fps+, hand loads. Some people that are not used to shooting heavy recoil guns, have one heck of a time managing recoil and sight acquisition on running, trotting coyotes....I cannot stress this fact enough. I would ask them after they had emptied the shotgun at a running coyote at 30 yards where they were aiming, and they said that they had no idea. I then took these good men out, set up gallon milk jugs at 40-15 yards, and had them start on the longest shot, and work their way toward the closest shot, as fast as they could with accuracy. The results were amazing with this practice, but all men gained confidence and/or found they shot a different shotgun better than another due to GUN FIT. Also, large white beade sights or High Vis sights helped tremendously with all of us.
The most popular shotguns I had were two Ithaca Auto Mag 10ga, Beretta 390 was second, and the most popular pump was the Browning BpS, in spite of its weight.
Most never realize that you may have to lead a charging bear. If you stop your swing, you shoot behind them every time, without exception. So, Practice, and muscle memory is a great thing.
You will never forget the experience of hearing a bear's breathing, and grunts, while clacking it's teeth, coming in hard. Don't look at their eyes, you may freeze if you do.
I had a retired Navy Captain tell me that that hard-charging black bear I called in was a worse experience than a MIG attack during the Korean War.
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