big johnson
Well-Known Member
338 Snipe Tac ( Oh Yea )
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Are calibers above 308 and below 375 destined to wither away?
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Greatgrandad
Active Member
As I suspected by the words used in your posts.
As for your final question regarding a 245 Berger @ 3k fps, no one in this thread has even hinted it isn't good medicine on elk or other game. I've killed a few medium and large game at LR/ELR distance with a couple of 300 RUM's with 210 grain bullets and one at over 900 yards with a 180 grain, and I have also shot numerous game of various sizes and distances with many other calibers/cartridges. They all have their place.
I own and load numerous calibers and cartridges and enjoy them all, but that does not mean I am giving up my "between" calibers/cartridges that work very well for me just because someone thinks they should fade away based on BC numbers. Each to his own, and mine is a variety for its purpose.
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HRM Johnny
Well-Known Member
If I am going to imagine an 8 mm rem mag, may I please have permission to imagine, necking it down to 7 mm. Please.
HRM Johnny
Well-Known Member
Thank you Charlton Heston. Good job, Hemiford.
HRM Johnny
Well-Known Member
Jack O'Connor?
Yes, that's the guy. He was a writer in one or more of the hunting magazines that I grew up reading. He loved his 270 as many of his generation still do.
Hmmmm, what a good idea, what shall we call it ?If I am going to imagine an 8 mm rem mag, may I please have permission to imagine, necking it down to 7 mm. Please.
If I am going to imagine an 8 mm rem mag, may I please have permission to imagine, necking it down to 7 mm. Please.
7MM STW!
RH300UM
Well-Known Member
Modern Day branding it would be named the STC
Shooting Times Creedmoor ! perfectModern Day branding it would be named the STC
6.5x300 WBY
Well-Known Member
My new love is my 338-378 Wby. I'd never choose a .308 with anything loaded in it over my 338-378 Wby with 267 HHT or 300 Bergers.
So no IMHO THEY ARE NOT Fading away.
But you can have your opinions and that's fine. It's just opinions there is no right or wrong.
So no IMHO THEY ARE NOT Fading away.
But you can have your opinions and that's fine. It's just opinions there is no right or wrong.
I think smaller calibers are more popular because they're more fun to shoot. A 9 lb '06 isn't a lot of fun from the bench: a 6 Creed, 6.5 Creed, or similar are, and are well-suited for long range target, recreational, and deer hunting. That's what most people do with rifles today. Back when I was in the business I stocked a good range of hunting rifles in hunting calibers but mostly sold ARs, .223 and .308 bolt actions. Nowadays at the chain stores I see Ruger, Savage, a few Remington and Winchester bolt actions and more of the Creeds, 6.5 PRCs, and a smattering of .308s, .223s, a .204, maybe an '06, rarely a .270. That must be what sells.
I may have missed a post already mentioning it but the 338 ARC is brand new (at least as a factory offering).
No Creedmoor, but it's Advanced. Advanced Rifle Cartridge (ARC).
www.hornady.com
No Creedmoor, but it's Advanced. Advanced Rifle Cartridge (ARC).
338 ARC - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc
338 ARC delivers 1.5 times more energy than the 300 Blackout Subsonic. Engineered for consistent pressure, the 338 ARC provides reliable cycling with both supersonic and subsonic loads.
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tomcat818
Well-Known Member
If I look at it strictly from a LRH standpoint with a goal of best terminal performance then I think the OP has a point. Kinetic energy or 'KE' is broadly considered the best measure of terminal performance and is equivalent to 1/2 momentum times velocity more simply represented by the formula:
In this equation the 'm' represents mass from the formula for momentum: MV or mass times velocity. The 'v' represents velocity both in both the formula for momentum and KE which gives you velocity squared. So the basic takeaway from this when considering terminal performance is velocity is more important by a factor of 2. This is backed up by the fact that hunting wildcat cartridges highly favor velocity over mass of the projectile and usually involve necking down a large capacity case and\or modifying the case for more charge capacity. Where as shooting for accuracy only relies on lower velocities and will often wildcat in the opposite direction 7PRCW for example which necks up the 6.5PRC to 7mm. My thoughts on this are that with momentum and Newton's third law: For every action (force applied), there is an equal and opposite reaction. So by slowing the projectile down and reducing momentum through less velocity they are reducing the effect of outside equal and opposite reactions (primarily wind) producing better accuracy. They can afford to reduce velocity because they don't need to kill the targets where as for us hunters we are better off sacrificing mass rather than velocity for killing efficiency. Today with the onset of high BC hunting capable bullets we are able to bring some of that mass back into play without sacrificing downrange velocity resulting in great terminal performance at long ranges.
A recent example of this was in the 2024 Meat Pole post where a member's (laker) daughter shot a big whitetail buck at 417yds using a 22 Creedmore (6.5 creed necked down to .224) loaded with 77gr TMK (not necessarily considered a hunting bullet) @ ~3,450 fps and the buck only went 20yds. He posted pictures that show the terminal performance on that buck and it is impressive.
Based on this understanding I agree with the OP from a hunting perspective the need for very large cartridges is becoming less necessary but more so for those involved in ELR shooting out to 2 miles. I also believe there is always a point of diminishing returns at play both at the top and bottom of the scale in the physical realm. Where or what that is for both accuracy and terminal performance is both elusive and highly debatable which for me peaks my interest even more in LRH.
In this equation the 'm' represents mass from the formula for momentum: MV or mass times velocity. The 'v' represents velocity both in both the formula for momentum and KE which gives you velocity squared. So the basic takeaway from this when considering terminal performance is velocity is more important by a factor of 2. This is backed up by the fact that hunting wildcat cartridges highly favor velocity over mass of the projectile and usually involve necking down a large capacity case and\or modifying the case for more charge capacity. Where as shooting for accuracy only relies on lower velocities and will often wildcat in the opposite direction 7PRCW for example which necks up the 6.5PRC to 7mm. My thoughts on this are that with momentum and Newton's third law: For every action (force applied), there is an equal and opposite reaction. So by slowing the projectile down and reducing momentum through less velocity they are reducing the effect of outside equal and opposite reactions (primarily wind) producing better accuracy. They can afford to reduce velocity because they don't need to kill the targets where as for us hunters we are better off sacrificing mass rather than velocity for killing efficiency. Today with the onset of high BC hunting capable bullets we are able to bring some of that mass back into play without sacrificing downrange velocity resulting in great terminal performance at long ranges.
A recent example of this was in the 2024 Meat Pole post where a member's (laker) daughter shot a big whitetail buck at 417yds using a 22 Creedmore (6.5 creed necked down to .224) loaded with 77gr TMK (not necessarily considered a hunting bullet) @ ~3,450 fps and the buck only went 20yds. He posted pictures that show the terminal performance on that buck and it is impressive.
Based on this understanding I agree with the OP from a hunting perspective the need for very large cartridges is becoming less necessary but more so for those involved in ELR shooting out to 2 miles. I also believe there is always a point of diminishing returns at play both at the top and bottom of the scale in the physical realm. Where or what that is for both accuracy and terminal performance is both elusive and highly debatable which for me peaks my interest even more in LRH.
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