Are calibers above 308 and below 375 destined to wither away?

[memtb]

This is the long range forum. For long range ballistics rule. The smaller calibers, 308 and below, are being upgraded ballistically with faster twists, higher BC bullets, and cartridges designed to maximize the ballistic performance. Same is true in 375 and above. Faster twists and higher BC bullets. The in between calibers can't compete. Well 338 could but who wants to shoot 350 to 400 grain 338 bullets in cases requiring oversized actions.? Not many when a 308 gets the same job done.

Very Interesting! memtb

 

[Greatgrandad]

This is the long range forum. For long range ballistics rule. The smaller calibers, 308 and below, are being upgraded ballistically with faster twists, higher BC bullets, and cartridges designed to maximize the ballistic performance. Same is true in 375 and above. Faster twists and higher BC bullets. The in between calibers can't compete. Well 338 could but who wants to shoot 350 to 400 grain 338 bullets in cases requiring oversized actions.? Not many when a 308 gets the same job done.

I think we are aware its an LR/ELR forum, as through the decades, I have competed in my fair share of 1,000 yard matches, 1 mile matches and 2k. Some of those were shot will 30 cals, 7mm's, 264's, 6mm's and even 224's with heavy VLD type bullets. However, I have also used a few 338's with 285-300 grain bullets in those ELR shoots. Never shot 350-400 grain bullets in my 338's. I can attest none of my 308 cal loads ever struck with the same authority at 1 mile - 2k as a 300 grain 338 bullet.

 

[fruitnut]

I think we are aware its an LR/ELR forum, as through the decades, I have competed in my fair share of 1,000 yard matches, 1 mile matches and 2k. Some of those were shot will 30 cals, 7mm's, 264's, 6mm's and even 224's with heavy VLD type bullets. However, I have also used a few 338's with 285-300 grain bullets in those ELR shoots. Never shot 350-400 grain bullets in my 338's. I can attest none of my 308 cal loads ever struck with the same authority at 1 mile - 2k as a 300 grain 338 bullet.

All very true. But Berger recently came out with a 375 410 grain hybrid target with G7 bc of 0.475 vs about 0.42 for the 300 gr 338. And they have a target bullet in 375 with G7 of 0.52. The smaller calibers including 338 can't compete with that. The bigger the caliber the higher the BC potential with similar twist.

If I want more than a 300 NM AI in a long range hunting round now, I'd go to a big 375 shooting the 410 grain Berger not 338.

 

[memtb]

This is the long range forum

Absolutely! However, it's name implies Long Range Hunting, which without a "hard fast" definitive definition of long range is subjective.

For some of us nimrods…..500 yards is a long "poke"! To some, 200 yards is a long shot, for most handgunners using open sights - 100 yards is long distance. There are many cartridges that can easily be very effective in conventional long action, moderately light hunting rifles at ranges below the ELR status……where the majority of us reside.

Perhaps, the majority of " long range" hunter's are somewhat satisfied with the present medium bore cartridges available for their desired purposes.

For the true "long range" hunters (a very loosely defined term), those of which occupy a small percentage of hunters, as compared to your standard "run of the mill" long range hunters. …..these shooters/hunters apparently have no qualms with the larger actions/ longer barrels/heavier rifles for use in their specialty! They even have the ELR section…..catering strictly to their expertise!

Obviously, this is my very biased opinion! memtb

 

[Greatgrandad]

All very true. But Berger recently came out with a 375 410 grain hybrid target with G7 bc of 0.475 vs about 0.42 for the 300 gr 338. And they have a target bullet in 375 with G7 of 0.52. The smaller calibers including 338 can't compete with that. The bigger the caliber the higher the BC potential with similar twist.

BC isn't everything by any stretch of the imagination. Wind, mirage reading and trigger control, or lack thereof, will far erase any small improvements in bullet BC. Been there got many T-shirts.

 

[med358-boise]

Perhaps, I personally have never had much use for 8mm-358. Although, I love my 9,3x62.

 

[FireFlyFishing]

I see what @fruitnut is getting at. It certainly is the trend right now.

 

[memtb]

Another way to look at it is what's hot and new. What I see are many hot new fast twist 22 and 25 calibers. Many new bullets and rifles 308 and below. What's hot and new in 8 mm, nothing I've seen. Same for 358. Not much in 338.

Shooters like what they've always shot. Most of us are old. But new shooters aren't looking for a 358 or 8 mm.

I believe that I missed your point….So I'll try again.

To better answer you, with the scarcity and expense of components …..the "little guys" are simply much cheaper to shoot. Perhaps many of the younger shooters also have families and/or other priorities…..as blasphemous as that may sound!

Also, the small stuff minimizes recoil, meaning that they can shoot a great deal more.

For the guys that hunting, rather than shooting being the priority…..they don't shoot the larger stuff for the above reasons, cost and recoil. Perhaps there's sufficient cartridges for the medium bore group that there "hunting needs" are pretty well covered.

Plus as you said, to fully utilize the much higher bc, heavier bullets …..specialized actions, ect. for much greater case capacities would be required. I'm speculating here, the guys willing to spend the $ by going with the specialized actions, will go up to the larger bore, higher bc, high velocity ……where the components are already developed.

Also, the vast majority of hunters hunt deer and similarly sized game…..with the advent of much improved bullets, the "little guys" perform better than yesteryear!


It also seems that with many of the younger folks, doing more with less, appears to have a "cult like" following. Maybe like a "Badge of Honor" until after several miserable failures, when they earn their "Scarlet Letter"! memtb

 

[Greatgrandad]

I believe that I missed your point….So I'll try again.

To better answer you, with the scarcity and expense of components …..the "little guys" are simply much cheaper to shoot. Perhaps many of the younger shooters also have families and/or other priorities…..as blasphemous as it sounds!


Also, the vast majority of hunters hunt deer and similarly sized game…..with the advent of much improved bullets, the "little guys" perform better than yesteryear!


It also seems that with many of the younger folks, doing more with less, appears to have a "cult like" following. Maybe like a "Badge of Honor" until after several miserable failures, when they earn their "Scarlet Letter"! memtb

I agree but will add many shooters find the newer, smaller caliber and lighter recoiling cartridges easier to shoot more accurately, especially at any distance beyond 3-500 yards or so. If they reload, then as you pointed out the costs are cheaper and similar with factory ammo. Like it always has, the market/manufactures are just responding to what is hot for now.

Not that those are bad things, as some of those will progress into larger and/or longer range calibers after having learned the basics of LR/ELR shooting and efficient/effective hunting. Most of us did not begin our LR/ELR shooting/hunting journey by sitting down behind a 338, 375 or 50 cal without beginning smaller, less recoil and at lesser distances. Most will be very satisfied with the smaller calibers and will find no need to advanced into larger bores nor longer ranges. And that is fine also, for most of those calibers/cartridges will fulfill 95% of their hunting and shooting "needs".

Every caliber/cartridge has its place, limits and purpose, but if the bullet manufactures produce VLD type bullets for 'tween calibers, with barrel makers adding faster twists, those calibers may find a new resurgence also.

Hmm, imagine an 8mmRemMag with a heavy, high BC VLD load, a 35 cal VLD bullet or other similar the bullet manufactures haven't made yet? It wasn't that long ago many of us LR shooters were demanding higher BC bullets that did not exist then, and we had to settle for the standard match bullets of the day or have them custom made at high expense.

 

[Muddyboots]

So as an "older gentleman", I just built a 700LA, 3.67 magazine, 30-06, 26", 1:9twist, Serengeti bore rider with 0.170 freebore, Triggertech, MDT field stock for shooting heavies. I anticipate putting my 300WSM on a block here shortly. This 06 will prob get me what I want and how cool is that? Older standard cartridges have so much potential when modernized. This one is a step forward from fast twist 1:8 long throat .270TH I built couple years ago by using Serengeti reamer in the 06.

So keeping with my tradition, standard cartridges are not a scavenger hunt for brass. Excellent brass readily available.

Good friend has just done a 35AI Whelen similarly that is delivering extraordinary performance. I am thinking this might be my next one!!! Absolutely crazy performance!

The tweener cartridges are there to take them to next level if you choose to do so. Or what was once old is new again.

 

[fruitnut]

The point is that 308 or lesser caliber is entirely adequate to take large game including elk to 1000 yards or beyond. So what use is anything larger unless you are after dangerous game? Then I want 375 or bigger. The smaller calibers are easier and cheaper to shoot.

15-20 years ago, 338 Edge was king of the hill. With the advent of higher BC bullets in smaller calibers that's no longer the case.

The tweeners are devastating and will kill anything but there's something better for everything.

 

[Greatgrandad]

The point is that 308 or lesser caliber is entirely adequate to take large game including elk to 1000 yards or beyond. So what use is anything larger unless you are after dangerous game? Then I want 375 or bigger. The smaller calibers are easier and cheaper to shoot.

15-20 years ago, 338 Edge was king of the hill. With the advent of higher BC bullets in smaller calibers that's no longer the case.

The tweeners are devastating and will kill anything but there's something better for everything.

Just out of curiosity, how many game animals, especially large, have you shot at 1,000 yards and beyond with the 308 bore?

 

[memtb]

The point is that 308 or lesser caliber is entirely adequate to take large game including elk to 1000 yards or beyond

I guess this is were we part company!

Adequate……perhaps! They work great……until they don't! The small stuff offers very little room for error.

Just because you can…….doesn't mean you should! I simply believe that the elk deserves a cartridge with higher degree of killing effectiveness! memtb

 

[Roughrice]

I was just thinking that a 338 Creedmoor would certainly be an effective cartridge.

Like 8.6 Balckout maybe?