WRONG GUNS GUYS...be a hunter pls

[shooters]

I have never been in a situation where a hunter took a good animal, walked up to it, found it dead and said, "I really wish I had used a smaller rifle!"
.

I'm still laughing at that quote. So funny!

 

[FEENIX]

Ss7mm

Well said.

DITT! Thanks for the excellent job in keeping all of us straight.

Ed

 

[budlight]

Kirby is much more elequent than me. I won't take a bad shot. Some years I never filled my tags. I passed on long range high risk shots. Then I bought a 7STW when it was still a wildcat. 28 inch barrel. Then I bought a 30-378 Either one of those is good for the lower 48.

I always practice for the long shot and I'm still ready for the 50 yard. Well I did have trouble one year. It is hard to figure out where you are on a deer with a 6X - 24X when all you see is hair. I had to go up and down a couple of times to center my shot and figure scope height into the placement.


The not worry factor is a big + with HP rifles. I use my 243 for the smaller stuff Antelope and down

 

[7mmRemMag]

I used my dad's old Winchester model 70 30.06 springfield up until about 8 years back when I broke down and bought myself a Remington 700 7mmRem Mag. My reasoning behind it, I have to admit.... I was a less than perfect shot and I wanted to be able to knock the game down no matter what! Lol probably not the best reason. However, I have begun reloading since then, Have learned alot, and have become much better! Now all I shoot is Magnums, I can shoot at distances I never imagined I'd be able to and with much more precision. I feel that Magnums have made me a better hunter, because like many of you are stating...I am much more confident and comfortable now any time I pull the trigger. Even though my longest kill has been only 600 yards....I wouldve never attempted that shot with my 30.06
Its retired now. Last but not least I'd like to say what I heard from a Professional African Hunter " Always make sure you have enough gun " Lol and its true. All my Magnums including my 300wby mag can shoot anything at 50 yards too. But its much more fulfilling taking a poke out there at 500+ and getting it done! No longer will my heart be broken if that Big buck walks a tad out of my range. I personally am glad I shoot the Big stuff now. gun)

 

[loosesniper2000]

That's not what you posted and I would not have deleted it for that. What I deleted were posts that were going to take the thread in the wrong direction. Trust me when I say that your posts are not memorable enough for me to remember each one. The majority of them are statements that I'm amazed an adult would post and a majority of them always seem to be written with an attitude. That's all I'll say on the subject. If you have a problem with anything I say or do on this site then by all means feel free to talk with Len and voice your complaints. I know you know how to get hold of him.

The intent of the original post was not my main concern, the direction the thread was headed was my concern. Unlike some who feel that they can say and do whatever they want around here, I personally try to keep the site clean of debris that would degrade what the site is truly all about.

I appreciate you keeping the site clean! I allow my kids to look at some pictures and videos on here, it would be a shame for them to find language on here that is not heard around my house.... I do respect that!
There's enough garbage on the rest of the internet and I'm glad I don't find it on LRH

Keep up the good work

 

[SpencerSS]

SpencerSS,

I should have been more specific on my points. Personally, I beleive that conventional long range bullet selection SHOULD start at 6.5mm and go up from there. Actually, I personally believe that 7mm is even a better minimum for a LONG RANGE bullet selection.

In my opinion and its only my opinion, the 243 is to light for hunting big game at long range, that being over 700 yards. Less then this ya, they work fine if everything goes right but I have seen some pretty serious problems with things do not go perfect.

A 95 gr Partition in 6mm has a pretty weak BC, its also pretty light weight and if the bullet looses its 60% bullet weight as designed thats is very little sectional density left to get the work done. Pronghorns are VERY light critters, their bones are very lightly constructed so not a good test of any bullet.

A 6mm, even the best ones do not do alot of vital tissue damage on big game at long range. Again, I am not referring to 200, 300 and 400 yard impacts, I am referring to LONG RANGE hunting which we need to get back to on those web page. The debates have been slipping back toward conventional range hunting more and more.

I stated the X bullet has problems with pressure. I did not say anything about the TSX bullet because they do not have pressure issues. They however do not have a very high BC and are inconsistant expanders at LONG RANGE. When you have inconsistant expansion from a 6mm bullet you can get into serious problems.

Its for this reason and the several others listed that I do not feel a 6mm is a good choice for a long range bullet choice.

I know full well they work. I have killed several dozen whitetail deer out to 400 yards using a 22-250 and a 55 gr Hornady SP bullet, never lost a single deer using that combo, still I have witnessed some not so good shot placements that turned out in VERY sad results. I have seen the same thing many times with the larger 6mm wildcats much larger then your 243 AI.

Ballistically they are impressive, terminally, they are adequate in most situations, I do not leave a long range shot opportunity to "adequate". In my opinion, as stated before, overkill is a mythical place, no such thing if you can pilot the power with precision.

Someday, if you keep using the 243 AI for long range hunting, its only a matter of time that something bad will happen. You could say this with any chambering but the likelihood that you will loose a big game animal with a smaller chambering goes up dramatically as the range increases compared to the larger caliber chamberings. That is a simple fact. Again, if you hit the X on every shot, you will never have a problem but if you are reaching out past 500 yards, its just a matter of time.

If you're refering to long range shots, then why did you say the NP has trouble with impact velocities over 2900, in your first post? What gun is going to have a partition, or any bullet for that matter, moving at 2900+ past 700yds?

As far as lightly constructed pronghorns, this is true; but if you send a bullet in the front and through the spine, down the length of it, as I did, those light bones act quite heavy. As I said before I've never had problems with NPs penetrating at high impact velocities, which is what you suggested in your first post.

Lastly, I don't use the 243AI on big game at long range (700+), and never said I did. I've got a 260AI, 284win, and soon a 7mmWSM. Still, the 105Amax, and 105VLD at 3200fps start do wonderful things for the long poke, my targets being steel, crows, and the ocasional slick-head for feel goodness.

 

[ken snyder]

I think soundwaves asked a good question and stated it with observable facts that we all know to be true! While reading LRH it does sound like we only use cannons for hunting. For me and probably most people, the answer is that we are multiple rifle hunters and pick the one that best serves our particular circumstances. Sometimes a 30-30 sometimes an Elyphunt rifle. My favorite Antelope rifle is still a 6mm and my favorite LR Roosevelt Elk rifles are absolutely large.

 

[Len Backus]

LRH has a Poll that says something like 85% do not shoot big game over700 yards.

 

[FEENIX]

It's normally the nuts behind the trigger that is wrong, not the guns!

 

[Fiftydriver]

SpenserSS,

I made that point because in spite of all the preperation we do for long range hunting, we still end up taking 80% of our big game at ranges under 300 yards unless your setting up specifically to take nothing but a long range shot. Few Hunters do this, many long range hunters have the ability to take game out past 1000 yards but seldom do.

Fair enough question though, your right, if we are talking about 700 yard impacts then there should be no problem with the partitions performance terminally from what I am taking from your reply.

My reply to you is that if my comment is not relavent, how can you consider a 95 gr. partition relavent when talking about +700 yard shooting. As you stated in your own comments, you do not use the 95 gr partition for long rnage shooting, its mainly a shorter range option for big game hunting.

From what you have discribed, you are not impacting the partitions with high velocity.... Remember this is a relative thing. All of the chamberings you state you use are very moderate velocity chamberings at best. I am not saying they are not good chamberings in any way but they are by no means high velocity rounds.

I have done expansion testing with the Partition bullets in the following combos:

140 gr 6.5mm in 6.5mm Allen Magnum @ 3500 fps

140 gr 7mm in 7mm Rem Mag @ 3380 fps

140 gr 7mm in 7mm RUM at 3500 fps

160 gr 7mm in 7mm RUM at 3250 fps

180 gr 30 cal in 300 RUM at 3350 fps

200 gr 30 cal in 300 RUM at 3210 fps

The testing was done into my expansion fixture which holds water filled milkjugs or water soaked phone books. In every one of the above tests, the partitions had higher then 50% partition wall failure at ranges under 200 yards. That was the very best results.

The worst results were obviously the highest velocity tests in 6.5mm AM, 7mm RUM and 300 RUM(180 gr) tests. In those four tests, partition wall faliure happened over 70% of the time. Total number of bullets fired was a minumum of 30 for each caliber and bullet weight and range.

Expansion testing was stopped at 300 yards with the slower chamberings and 400 yards with the fastest as this is where reliable performance started 100% of the time.

In interesting point, I put a 180 gr Partition in my 300 Allen Xpress loaded to 3650 fps and the partition ruptured at a measured 750 yards when impacting water filled milk jugs. Now that is an extreme velocity case but it proves my next point.

The Accubond bullet, when it was released was put through the same testes as above. Not only was there no bullet failure, close range penetration was far superior to the partition running at least 15 to 20% deeper penetration on impacts between 200 and 300 yards.

At longer ranges, the acccubond held tighter groups, expanded at least as well if not more reliably then the partitions. Plus they had much improved long range ballistic performance.

All in all, in my opinion, the parition is obsolete when you compare it head to head with the newer Accubond design. THe only draw back I have seen with the Accubond is that because of its very heavy base and very thick jacket wall, if you get a rifle with a looser bore, accuracy can suffer but I have only seen three rifles in hundreds that did not shoot the Accubond extremely well. I have seen far more not like the Partition.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, in your use, for closer range conventional hunting, the parition would likely work just fine, for long range hunting which I assumed we were talking about since we are on the headliner long range hunting web site, its rather anemic in pretty much any way.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Len,

I would have loved to see that poll taken 6-7 years ago here on LongRangeHunting and compare the results of the same poll today.

I am pretty sure the results would have been dramatically different. Not because there are less of us hunting at long range, just because there are vastly more conventional hunters here on LRH now days.

Not a bad thing, glad they come here to learn how to do it right but it certainly would effect the results compared to past years when most everyone on LRH was a serious dedicated long range hunter.

Again, nothing against anyone, just a comment from someone thats been around pretty much from the start. Guess that is just the evolution of the site.

I would like to see more focus set on true long range hunting instead of having all shorts of hunting styles debating a single topic because the way you look at a topic is greatly dependant about how you hunt.

Case in point, My debate with SpencerSS, in his mind a 95 gr partition out of a 243 AI is a great chambering for his hunting style. To me its a varmint round. Neither of us are wrong and neither is 100% right, just depends on how you look at things from your background and how you hunt and shoot.

Its hard to have a good debate when such widely varying styles of shooting and hunting are thrown into the mix. More discussions turn into heated debates simply because there are two strongly and widely differing opinions simply based on the way the two debaters hunt and shoot their rifles.

It would be like me going over to 24campfire.com and posting about my 338 Allen Magnum reaching out to 2000 yards and having the ability to easily take big game at that range. I would be tarred and feathered as an extremest!!!

Just my opinion.

ALot of heated debates just start because you have conventional hunters debating long range hunters, there is not alot of middle ground there. Again, both are right, both are wrong but no one will agree who is who!!!

 

[Broz]

Len,

I would like to see more focus set on true long range hunting instead of having all shorts of hunting styles debating a single topic because the way you look at a topic is greatly dependant about how you hunt.

Its hard to have a good debate when such widely varying styles of shooting and hunting are thrown into the mix. More discussions turn into heated debates simply because there are two strongly and widely differing opinions simply based on the way the two debaters hunt and shoot their rifles.

Just my opinion.

ALot of heated debates just start because you have conventional hunters debating long range hunters, there is not alot of middle ground there. Again, both are right, both are wrong but no one will agree who is who!!!

Kirby, I with you 100%. This is one reason I feel we need a Extended LR forum too. The LR 600~700 yard shots in many cases take a different shooting disiplin and a whole differnt set of criteria than a 1200 to 2000 yrd shot.

Len is considering this for us now as we talked about it last week.

Jeff

 

[SpencerSS]

From what you have discribed, you are not impacting the partitions with high velocity.... Remember this is a relative thing. All of the chamberings you state you use are very moderate velocity chamberings at best. I am not saying they are not good chamberings in any way but they are by no means high velocity rounds.

I say again. 95NP at 3300fps muzzle, from 243AI. Anything under 100yds is over 3000fps, and I've shot at least 5-6 big game animals in that slot. Again I have seen no pentration issues in these cases.

P.S. Cool tests by the way, I'd love to have your setup.

 

[SpencerSS]

Case in point, My debate with SpencerSS, in his mind a 95 gr partition out of a 243 AI is a great chambering for his hunting style. To me its a varmint round. Neither of us are wrong and neither is 100% right, just depends on how you look at things from your background and how you hunt and shoot.

I don't have a hunting style. I hunt with a primative bow that I made, modern longbows and recurves, compounds and crossbows; I hunt with handguns, rifles, air rifles.....I shoot animal near and far, big and small....I never stick with one setup or senerio for long. The way I see it, once I've done something, it's time to do something else.

P.S. If you go back to the first post I mentioned the 95NP/243AI, I said "I used to" shoot that load. I'm trying the 95VLD and 105Amax now.

And for anyone who thinks we're mad or 'goin at each other', I'm just having a friendly debate, and I'm sure Mr. Allen would say the same.