WRONG GUNS GUYS...be a hunter pls

l really can make great threads that gets lots of arguments in it lol.

Messing with you guys.

L wish l could own the guns you guys do. A sauer rifle costs 10000 dolars here so we cant have 2-3 rifles because we have to pay 5000 dolars tax for each rifle every 3 years !!!!! Thats why we choose a all round rifle. If l ownd a 338lm tac rifle l would eaven take it rabbit shootin :)

God bless America!!!
 
l really can make great threads that gets lots of arguments in it lol.

messing with you guys.

l wish l could own the guns you guys do. a sauer rifle costs 10000 dolars here so we cant have 2-3 rifles because we have to pay 5000 dolars tax for each rifle every 3 years !!!!! thats why we choose a all round rifle. if l ownd a 338LM tac rifle l would eaven take it rabbit shootin :)

When I was there I bought a couple of huglu shotguns. The importer here in the states will not service them at all and says that they are not of the same quality as the ones he imports. However, from the examples I looked at they are far and away better. My were both higher grade over/under 28 gauge but everything about them seems to be of good quality. They are not a Berretta or Belgian browning quality, but they are certainly better than any of the cheap over/under shotguns I have come across here. I know you have several Turkish manufacturers that make rifles as well, do they offer anything with good accuracy and quality? It would seem you could save some money going that direction and if you could find a good machinist the tools to rechamber a barrel should be easy to come by or to get shipped to you. I doubt you could rechamber to a big .338 but there are more powerful options in 7mm or .308 and an 8mm-06 Ackley is a good round if you can get a good long range bullet over there. Not on par with a 338 magnum, but will carry energy a long ways, I was able to shoot accurately with one a 13 years old so recoil shouldn't be too bad. Mine was made on a turkish 98 action. surely you guys have those around. I have a 6.5x55 mutant built with a large ring small shank turkish 98 action and a swede barrel that has been turned down and cut to 27 inches. THe guy then carved a stock from OAK!!! Put a cherry forend tip on it and used a weatherby deluxe stock for his model to shape it. Glass bedded the whole thing and its a really unique rifle to me. Never before or since have I seen an oak stock. The guy was a cabinet builder in north Arkansas and probably noone ever told him you can't make a good stock with oak!
 
l really can make great threads that gets lots of arguments in it lol.

messing with you guys.

l wish l could own the guns you guys do. a sauer rifle costs 10000 dolars here so we cant have 2-3 rifles because we have to pay 5000 dolars tax for each rifle every 3 years !!!!! thats why we choose a all round rifle. if l ownd a 338LM tac rifle l would eaven take it rabbit shootin :)

I feel you 100%! I dont have the pocketbook to support buying a 5000 dollar gun and to tell you the truth I dont have a use for it. I just bought a .300wsm for 900 dollars and I had to save up for that! I am in college and money is extremely tight around here so Custom LR rigs were outta my range (pun intended). So I decided to buy a rifle that could kill just about anything in north america. Some will argue that you need something a bit bigger for grizzly and elk, but where I live we dont have either one. I have killed a turkey with a .300 using 120gr bullets, Ive killed deer using the 150-180 and all we have around here are black bear that can be killed easily with the 180's, and everything else is coyotes/hogs/coons/fox/groundhogs/ and the extremely rare bobcats. I think my .300wsm is a great all around rifle if I load it right. It may not be as dead accurate with the smaller bullets, but its accurate enough to hit the kill zone under 300 yards. I wish I could afford to buy 3-5 rifles but I chose an all around firearm and I am very happy with my decision.
 
I feel you 100%! I dont have the pocketbook to support buying a 5000 dollar gun and to tell you the truth I dont have a use for it. I just bought a .300wsm for 900 dollars and I had to save up for that! I am in college and money is extremely tight around here so Custom LR rigs were outta my range (pun intended).

I think nearly all of us were in the same position at your age. Some of us didn't have the choice of college and didnt even get to discuss it, our families simply could not afford it.. NO way!! The rewards of your education will come soon enough if you work hard. At your age I was hunting with handed down guns. My first gun that was a present was a $28 used 20 ga. I still have it. Something tells me you will own a few customs before you quit hunting. Good luck with your career.

Jeff gun)-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
I think nearly all of us were in the same position at your age. Some of us didn't have the choice of college and didnt even get to discuss it, our families simply could not afford it.. NO way!! The rewards of your education will come soon enough if you work hard. At your age I was hunting with handed down guns. My first gun that as a present was a $28 used 20 ga. I still have it. Something tells me you will own a few customs before you quit hunting. Good luck with your career.

Jeff gun)-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey jeff thanks alot, and BELIEVE me.. I have alot of handed down guns. My favorite is my H&R 10 gauge that will absolutely pound the shoulder, but its a real treat to shoot. Makes a 12 gauge group look like nothing.. it obliterates paper out to about 45 yards...especially with the heavyweight stuff. But I hope I will be finished with college in the next year. I doubt I will have the money to go on to grad school for my masters, but that will be a decision I will have to make down the road. Hopefully I can save for a custom or two in the next 5 to 10 years if I can get a job in this **** economy. My parents couldnt afford to send me to college either. I had to get scholarships so my parents pushed pretty hard when I was in highschool to try and get me to make good grades.. well I have made it through my junior year and I havent paid a dime for tuition. But books/technology fees/gas/etc are still pretty expensive, but maybe it will pay off in the end! Good luck to you guys, God bless, and have a merry Christmas.
 
Go easy guys. I got rid of 2 or 3 posts because this was headed in the wrong direction.

Yhe your good at that....
I posted "either your messing with us or your on the wrong forum",thank God you deleted that before anyone saw it....gun)
They guy was messing with us so I guess you never knew what direction it was headed did you?
 
Yhe your good at that....
I posted "either your messing with us or your on the wrong forum",thank God you deleted that before anyone saw it....gun)
They guy was messing with us so I guess you never knew what direction it was headed did you?
That's not what you posted and I would not have deleted it for that. What I deleted were posts that were going to take the thread in the wrong direction. Trust me when I say that your posts are not memorable enough for me to remember each one. The majority of them are statements that I'm amazed an adult would post and a majority of them always seem to be written with an attitude. That's all I'll say on the subject. If you have a problem with anything I say or do on this site then by all means feel free to talk with Len and voice your complaints. I know you know how to get hold of him.

The intent of the original post was not my main concern, the direction the thread was headed was my concern. Unlike some who feel that they can say and do whatever they want around here, I personally try to keep the site clean of debris that would degrade what the site is truly all about.
 
You have some merit to your question as far as power needed to cleanly kill big game at the ranges you list. 15 or even 10 years ago, you would have had more of an arguement as we were just starting to see the really premium bullets become popular for big game hunting.

I am not an overly old fella but when Istarted hunting, the Hornady Interbond and sierra gameking were pretty popular in my area of hunting. This was pretty common all around. Now yes, we had the partition and even the X bullet but both of these had issues. The partition was and is still not a good bullet for impact velocities over around 2900 fps as the partition will routinely rupture and penetration will stop dead in its tracks.

The X bullet has always had issues with pressure and limited velocity potential as well as being very finicky for accuracy.

When the larger magnum rounds starting coming onto the market, many used them with conventonal, lead core, cup jacketed bullet designs. This combination was a horrible mistake for most hunters that hunted in that zero to 300 yard range. The result was EXCESSIVE tissue damage, huge entrance woulds and sometimes huge exit wounds if the bullet penetrated that far. Very shallow penetration was a real problem and one of the main reasons why these big magnums got such a bad repuation as nothing but meat destroying machines.

Again, 15 years ago, your argument held more water. Now days, we have a selection of amazing bullets that not only hold together at closer ranges when fired out of these big magnums but they also create very little more tissue damage then a conventional bullet in a conventional chambering.

If you take a 150 gr Partition loaded to 3000 fps in a 30-06 and compare that to a 200 gr Accubond loaded to 3200 fps in a 30-06 with both fired into the front shoulder of an elk at 200 yards, about the only difference you would see is that the Accubond sustains a good permanent would channel much deeper then the Partition. There will be very little more blood shot meat if any more then that cased by the 30-06.

Now if you take a conventional cup jacketed bullet such as a gameking or Interlock or something similiar, terminal damange will be even more similiar.

Point being, if you use the correct weight and design of bullet in the RUMs, you will get very good terminal results with very little excessive tissue damage.

Back to the point you bring up, you are correct, if you put the bullet through the vitals, it does not really matter what bullet your using as long as it has the integrity to fully penetrate the vitals. The key is shot placement.

I shoot larger rifles for one simple reason, in unknown shooting conditions, you have a larger margin of error with the larger, more ballistically potent chambrerings then you do with the smaller rounds. Now do not MISREAD that statement. I said you have a larger margin of error, I did not say you need to do your very best to know the conditions dead on the money or as close as possible. That never happen however. We often get VERY close but at times we do get fooled.

With a lesser round, on those rare times we get totally fooled, you will get a complete miss or even worse a seriously wounded animal that you will loose. With a larger magnum chambering, you will likely have a 25 to 40% larger margin of error which will often mean that while you may not be right on the money, it will be close enough to get the work done still.

There have been many situations in my hunting carreer that I passed on a shot because I did not have 100% faith in a smaller chambering at the ranges and conditions I was in at the time. Over the years, I have increased the size of the chamberings I use for one main reason. These days, getting an opportunity at a good animal is pretty rare. IN my area, I may out in 20-25 days of hunting to find the one buck I want to shoot and when that chance arrives, IF it does, I want to be packing a weapon capable of taking that big game animal at any reasonable range it shows up at. If that is 100 yards, so be it, if its 900 yards so be it.

Most of the big game animals I have harvested over the past 10 years have been taken in the 400 to 700 yard range. There have been a handfull at closer ranges, a decent amount at longer ranges but most have been in this yardage window. In ideal conditions, 400 yards is just starting to get into moderate range shooting for me personally. However in some conditions, 400 yards can be out of reach for many smaller chamberings, at least it should be.

The larger chamberings do not allow you to shoot in any conditions you want but they do offer a dramatic increase in ballisitic and terminal performance that in my mind are WELL worth using one over the smaller chamberings.

I have witnessed dozens of situations where the hunter wished he had been using a larger, more powerful rifle. I have never been in a situation where a hunter took a good animal, walked up to it, found it dead and said, "I really wish I had used a smaller rifle!"

There is no such thing as being over gunned as long as you can shoot the rifle accuracy at the ranges you will be hunting out to. With todays muzzle brake designs, these large chambered rifles have MUCH less recoil then even a 270 Win with no muzzle brake. Some do not like muzzle brakes, to each their own but with todays GREAT and affordable electronic hearing protection systems, there is no real excuss to not use a muzzle brake now, especially if you use them respectfully around other shooters or onlookers. This is easy to do as well.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Why .338 Ultra's, 338-378, 338 Edge, 338 Lapua, 300 ultras etc ?? Because they are better .Why not more energy,less wind drift, more killing power???? Why go with smaller calibers less capable??? Alot of the smaller calibers do not have the power needed for long range shots on bear, elk moose. Smaller isn't better and it never will be........If your recoil sensitive, scared to death to burn more of your precious powder or flich at muzzle blast don't shoot long range at Deer, elk bear, moose Why Not use a caliber that will get it done instead of one that MIGHT ??? Plain ridiculous...


My 243AIs, 260AI, 284win don't WILL or MIGHT, they HAVE and DO!

That being said, I've got nothing against big guns being used on critters.
 
Now yes, we had the partition and even the X bullet but both of these had issues. The partition was and is still not a good bullet for impact velocities over around 2900 fps as the partition will routinely rupture and penetration will stop dead in its tracks.

The X bullet has always had issues with pressure and limited velocity potential as well as being very finicky for accuracy.


I used to shoot 95NP at 3300 out of my 243AI. Never had a problem with close shots. The only time I had a bullet stay in an animal was a pronghorn at ~50yds, because I shot him longways and that spine is a tough SOB.

X bullet? maybe. TSX and TTSX? no, no problems at all, except cost and BCs. Hell, I stopped trying to find pressure with the 85TSX in the 243 when I passed up 3600fps.


P.S. You wrote some good stuff, I just had to pick at the above quote.:D Oh, and I prefer a supressor to a muzzle-brake when I can, but I have seen your's and they are nice.
 
SpencerSS,

I should have been more specific on my points. Personally, I beleive that conventional long range bullet selection SHOULD start at 6.5mm and go up from there. Actually, I personally believe that 7mm is even a better minimum for a LONG RANGE bullet selection.

In my opinion and its only my opinion, the 243 is to light for hunting big game at long range, that being over 700 yards. Less then this ya, they work fine if everything goes right but I have seen some pretty serious problems with things do not go perfect.

A 95 gr Partition in 6mm has a pretty weak BC, its also pretty light weight and if the bullet looses its 60% bullet weight as designed thats is very little sectional density left to get the work done. Pronghorns are VERY light critters, their bones are very lightly constructed so not a good test of any bullet.

A 6mm, even the best ones do not do alot of vital tissue damage on big game at long range. Again, I am not referring to 200, 300 and 400 yard impacts, I am referring to LONG RANGE hunting which we need to get back to on those web page. The debates have been slipping back toward conventional range hunting more and more.

I stated the X bullet has problems with pressure. I did not say anything about the TSX bullet because they do not have pressure issues. They however do not have a very high BC and are inconsistant expanders at LONG RANGE. When you have inconsistant expansion from a 6mm bullet you can get into serious problems.

Its for this reason and the several others listed that I do not feel a 6mm is a good choice for a long range bullet choice.

I know full well they work. I have killed several dozen whitetail deer out to 400 yards using a 22-250 and a 55 gr Hornady SP bullet, never lost a single deer using that combo, still I have witnessed some not so good shot placements that turned out in VERY sad results. I have seen the same thing many times with the larger 6mm wildcats much larger then your 243 AI.

Ballistically they are impressive, terminally, they are adequate in most situations, I do not leave a long range shot opportunity to "adequate". In my opinion, as stated before, overkill is a mythical place, no such thing if you can pilot the power with precision.

Someday, if you keep using the 243 AI for long range hunting, its only a matter of time that something bad will happen. You could say this with any chambering but the likelihood that you will loose a big game animal with a smaller chambering goes up dramatically as the range increases compared to the larger caliber chamberings. That is a simple fact. Again, if you hit the X on every shot, you will never have a problem but if you are reaching out past 500 yards, its just a matter of time.
 
" I do not leave a long range shot opportunity to "adequate". In my opinion, as stated before, overkill is a mythical place, no such thing if you can pilot the power with precision."

Amen.

I still think the 6.5s or 338s are the way to go though. If expense is an issue, a 6.5-284 or .264 win mag if throated correctly should do all you need out to 1,000 yards. No I am not speaking from my own experience but that of others I have read about. My issue with the 7mms and big 300s is that if I am going to go to the expense to load cases with 95+ grains of powder then you may as well go with a .338, it is likely the far and away best for long range purposes. 7mm's and .300's are no more capable than a 6.5mm. My own experience is limited to just a touch over 325 yards so take that as you will, but I have killed animals with 7mm's and 300.s as well and have consistently gotten better results with a 6.5. That is to say more DRT kills and IF they ran, they did not run as far, and terminal performance was better with the 6.5 at any given range. I have theories as to why this is, but the bottom line is that in my experience it is, and I don't feel like typing that much tonight. However I believe you are more educated than I am on the subject and have certainly seen more long range kills with your own eyes. We should all shoot the round that gives us the most confidence in our own abilities though. If/When that confidence begins to fade, it is time to look for somethig better.
 
Guy's, It is great to know that there is A site as this one!! I've been A member over at Wby Naition for 4 yrs now. I hadn't posted in A year and A half, but yesterday I was compelled to stand up for our right to hunt long range, as yourselve's I hunt, shoot,out to A 1000+ yds! I practice daily, I have A 1200yd range out back of my house as I live in the Cascade Mtn's of Wa. state. You would have thought I was trying to shoot Elk with A B-B gun the way some those guy's were coming down on me! So I guess I'll hang with you guy's over here And learn A few more things from you all. This is A better site anyway and I'm glad I found you A few week's ago! as for this thread: Go, Bigger,Faster,Farther...Thanks..Jerry
 
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