Why you should consider a 223 for a LR rifle

[308win]

LOL there's no way in hell.

That bullet is still going well over 900fps at that range with more energy than a 22LR has at the muzzle and you really expect people to believe it didn't penetrate a milk jug? Where's the bullet if it just bounced off?

I'd bet good money it was a clean miss and a rock got kicked up and hit it.

If you're going to make stuff up at least make it believable.

937fps and 167ftlbs to be exact.
The jug was hung with a piece of hay string by the handle which centered it up with the seam facing forward (in other words, we were not shooting at the flat side, but the corner) Doing this made it hang with with a pretty good angle back from top to bottom. This angle and the angle at which the bullet was coming in is the reason I think this happened?

This is the best picture I have of it (looking sideways). You can see from the impact point where the bullet ricochet off to the right (the path starts to get wider, I assume from the bullet yawing?) The big metal plate I have as a target backer had multiple hits from stabilized bullets except for one that hit sideways, crazy enough right off the same angle the bullet was taking from the jug. Honestly, I probably wouldn't believe it myself had I not been there. There was zero wind that day and we actually saw the jug swing a little after being hit, that's how we knew it was hit.

We shoot a lot of jugs and have seen some strange things.

This was shot at 622 yards with a 143 ELD-X started at 2670fps. Explain that one? Obviously there is an impact an a tear, yet the jug did not explode or lose the water inside. Again, I wouldn't have believed either if I hadn't been there. Believe what you want, but I promise you I do not "make stuff up" just for the interwebs.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

You can try to rationalize it all you want, but that bullet did not hit that jug. Go repeat this test as close range with a 22 shooting the same spot at an angle and tell me how it works out for you.

 

[skipglo]

So what the heck is that thing? LOL

Thing......Thing? Brother...it's ART for either your wall or the Range!!! And a varmint kill' en machine!

 

[Turkeytider]

Trump said this week the Russians defeated the Nazis and a bunch of woke kids called him a moron.

They are oblivious to history on the Eastern Front and the Battle for Berlin.

I imagine most kids ( I`ll include college age under " kids " for this ) are oblivious to history period. Wonder how many you`d have to ask to get a correct answer to a question like, " Who was the Supreme Allied Commander in the European Theatre during WWII? "

 

[Hugnot]

The new Hornady ELDVT at 3200 fps from a 9 twist .223 should improve long range performance.

G7 BC is .199, length = 1.055 inches

3600 fps from a 7.7 twist .22-.250 might be problematic with massive RPM's but a "comfortable" Sg = 1.57 with easy 256,000 rpms out of a 9 twist .223 looks good. The Hornady ballistics calculator has velocity over 1,400 fps at 1,000, 3500 ft. altitude, mild day.

Midway has them for $0.36 each.CFE223, Staball Match, or 8208 should work.

 

[bluedog69]

The new Hornady ELDVT at 3200 fps from a 9 twist .223 should improve long range performance.

G7 BC is .199, length = 1.055 inches

View attachment 547897

3600 fps from a 7.7 twist .22-.250 might be problematic with massive RPM's but a "comfortable" Sg = 1.57 with easy 256,000 rpms out of a 9 twist .223 looks good. The Hornady ballistics calculator has velocity over 1,400 fps at 1,000, 3500 ft. altitude, mild day.

Midway has them for $0.36 each.CFE223, Staball Match, or 8208 should work.

This has me wanting to try custom barrel in a 223!

 

[Hugnot]

More info on the .224 62 gr. H ELD-VT

Form Factor - from Berger:

"A Bullet's Ballistic Coefficient is comprised of 3 basic components: Weight, Diameter, and Form Factor. The weight and diameter of the bullet combine to determine the bullets sectional density; that's the amount of mass packed behind the frontal area of the bullet. Then form factor is what describes how streamlined the projectile is. A bullet with a long pointy nose and a boat tail will have less drag, and a lower form factor, than a blunt, flat based bullet. In particular, form factor is a number that relates the drag of a bullet to the drag of a standard such as G1 or G7. G7 form factors for long range bullets are from 0.95 (low drag) down to 0.88 (very low drag) for most typical long range bullets. The lowest drag projectiles made on lathes with very aggressive shapes, like our solid bullets, can have G7 form factors as low as 0.80, but that's pretty rare."

"Of the 3 elements that make up BC, form factor is the best way to increase BC because you can improve BC without increasing weight. Adding weight to increase BC depresses your muzzle velocity so there's a trade-off. However, if you simply lower the drag of the bullet (lower form factor), you retain a high muzzle velocity while improving the BC." my underline

The tiny .223 Rem has a limited powder capacity & never can equal the velocities of the larger .22-.250 & .22 CM & others. The limited powder capacity & lower velocities may be compensated by using a bullet having a low form factor ("long pointy nose and a boat tail")

Velocities guess-estimated from various load manuals. 3200 fps looks good for a 62 gr .223 load with 24 inch barrel.

A 9 twist .22-.250 would be real nice BUT the little .223 having cheap brass, available small rifle primers, & long barrel life is a practical replacement for some long range needs (with expected limitations).

 

[Hugnot]

The milk jug! (sounds like fun)

I assume that rifle has a 7 twist or faster.

My thinking is that a 7 twist or faster is needed for that long bullet. My guess, if shot thru a slower twist the velocity could have been 100 or so fps. The bullet was inadequately stabilized from a slower twist barrel and shed velocity over the 1 mile range.

This gets me thinking about Admiral Kimmel at Pearl Harbor, December 7, 1941. The Admiral was observing the disaster thru a window when a spent bullet hit him on the chest. The bullet left a smudge mark on his white uniform. If that bullet hit a sturdy milk jug it would have dented the jug.

 

[rdsii64]

The new Hornady ELDVT at 3200 fps from a 9 twist .223 should improve long range performance.

G7 BC is .199, length = 1.055 inches

View attachment 547897

3600 fps from a 7.7 twist .22-.250 might be problematic with massive RPM's but a "comfortable" Sg = 1.57 with easy 256,000 rpms out of a 9 twist .223 looks good. The Hornady ballistics calculator has velocity over 1,400 fps at 1,000, 3500 ft. altitude, mild day.

Midway has them for $0.36 each.CFE223, Staball Match, or 8208 should work.

My 223 bolt gun has a 7.7 twist so this should work out well.

 

[308win]

The milk jug! (sounds like fun)

I assume that rifle has a 7 twist or faster.

My thinking is that a 7 twist or faster is needed for that long bullet. My guess, if shot thru a slower twist the velocity could have been 100 or so fps. The bullet was inadequately stabilized from a slower twist barrel and shed velocity over the 1 mile range.

This gets me thinking about Admiral Kimmel at Pearl Harbor, December 7, 1941. The Admiral was observing the disaster thru a window when a spent bullet hit him on the chest. The bullet left a smudge mark on his white uniform. If that bullet hit a sturdy milk jug it would have dented the jug.

View attachment 548056

You are correct 1/7 twist w/muzzle velocity of 2900fps....1930ft elevation. I assume there was adequate stability, even at a mile, but I don't know how to figure that? She actually had a pretty impressive group on the target backer with the misses around the jug. My terminology in the first post was incorrect, the bullet didn't actually bounce off, but glanced off as the jug was at an angle and not flat.

 

[newmexkid]

Doggone, you guys. I was all set to do another 20P. Now....

 

[Buzzsaw]

PSA for the common man.

You don't need a $5,000 custom to shoot half inch groups with a .223. There are some $1000-$1500 factory rifles which will meet this accuracy mark. OH, with FACTORY ammo no less

 

[bluedog69]

PSA for the common man.

You don't need a $5,000 custom to shoot half inch groups with a .223. There are some $1000-$1500 factory rifles which will meet this accuracy mark. OH, with FACTORY ammo no less

View attachment 548134
View attachment 548135
View attachment 548136

I will take that even further. I have seen a lot of "cheap" Savages hit down in the 1/4 - 1/2 MOA range.

 

[Browninglover1]

It definitely does not require a custom build, but a fast twist barrel is a must for the longer/heavier bullets. I wish I had put a precision long range 223 together a decade ago.