Why no love for the 40S&W?

[Pinoniper]

So... If I read the OP correctly, the topic under discussion here is "Why no love for the 40," and not "which is the most certain, reasonably-carried, human-stopper," (We'd all be carrying a 4" 44 mag revolver) or "What's the best choice to carry if you are a professional on duty in a situation likely to encounter bank robbers with body armor or a band of terrorists."

Speaking for the average civilian guy, and evidently a majority of local police forces would tend to agree here (and I'm by no means calling them average guys) the 9mm, as loaded with modern bullets and modern propellants in modern weapons, offers a superior balance, BALANCE, of effective stopping power on humans, ease of carry, ease of shooting (both practice and when lives are on the line) and cost.

The factors of "if you are man enough" and "just train more" are pretty much non-factors here, IMHO

If you happen to prefer the 40, then you'll get no argument from me. Peace brother. More power to you. Respectfully, do go forth and be happy; live long and prosper.

Disclosure: I own a 9, a .38sp, a .45 ACP. a .357 mag, a .41mag, and a Ruger Colt .45 hog leg. Recoil alone is not the main issue here. I have shot my buddy's .40. It's nice. Maybe one day I'll pick one of my own up. For EDC though, or even nightstand, me, I'm just not in a hurry to do so. YMMV.

 

[Quintus]

Do you feel your gun go off when hunting compared to off the bench? Same thing with the pistol when I put people in different scenarios they don't feel the recoil either.

True you don't generally feel recoil when the pupils constrict and the big muscles get juiced. You also shoot high, sweat through your palms, lose count of your rounds etc. A lot of things "happen" you don't realize. Muscle memory will get you so far, but for the 99.9% that really don't actually expect to 'need' their gun the 9 or the 40 doesn't matter. They are going the cheaper route with a round they have heard of. that is why the 40 gets no love.
What percentage of consumers actually think they are buying a gun to shoot at a person? Oh also, the 40 is very hard to shoot turned sideways held with one hand elevated to just over ones head so the gang/criminal element is not a big fan either.

 

[Greyfox]

I think there are a whole host of reasons that the 9mm has dominated the 40.
-Cartridge/bullet technology has closed the gap on lethality
-The "spray and pray" principle....higher capacity/lower recoil/multiple shots on target
-Adoption by the US military,
-Wide International acceptance, and ammo availability
-Advances and innovation in handgun technology is largely directed at the 9mm.
IMO

 

[Quintus]

If you are going to the range to shoot, which most enthusiast on here are going to do anyways, wouldn't it make sense to at least try to do it right?

That's just it, the enthusiast IS shooting the 40 or 357 sig or 10mm...that's the point. We don't make up a big percentage of the consumer base.

 

[Sako284]

I appreciate your service, libtardmcsocialist.

My department is going to switch to 9mm, against my advice. The military adopted it for smaller framed shooters but an AR is their primary weapon. Law enforcement and then the public tend to follow. Bullets have gotten better in all caliber/cartridges. 9mm has historically not put people down quickly. The .40 had done a good job in law enforcement but all pistols lack power to stop a threat reliably. There are many officer involved shootings with 9mm's now that aren't stopping suspects very quickly. I'm a .40 guy all the way.

Likewise. Stay safe brother

 

[flyguy1]

While I happen to prefer .357 SIG to any of these because at the time I was getting into pistol shooting all the hot shot guys (Secret Service, FBI HRT, were using SIG 229s in that caliber, since it duplicated the ballistics of the 125gr JHP .357 Magnum most associated with one-shot stops, and also was able to shoot through auto glass and car doors), no handgun bullet "puts them down" reliably unless a brain or spinal cord hit occurs. Think of the double lung shot on deer that ran 100 yards after being hit with multiples of energy more than any handgun bullet. I know all internet deer are DRT but IRL not so.

Having said this, and hate to be so politically incorrect, but feel the move to less powerful cartridges (including the FBI's move away from .357 SIG) was driven by two things: men who didn't grow up shooting as the previous boomer generation did, who had been shooting 12 gauges since they were 12 years old, and, two, the recruitment of women with likely no shooting experience and smaller hands. FBI would never admit this as it would be political suicide. Rather just tout the development of new bullet technologies. If new bullets are deadlier in 9mm, as someone else already stated, wouldn't they be deadlier still in a higher caliber? As C.S. Lewis famously said, "Why did they stop teaching logic in these schools?" I was associated with several higher up LEO types, including FBI, who admitted this privately and would rather have had a .357 SIG or even a .45ACP.

So, once again, politics trumps reality. Twitter I'm sure would ban me for posting this. I'm probably safe on this newsgroup though. If not, so long, and enjoy the next 10 1/2 years before the world comes to an end because of climate change. Wait, isn't that based on another model? :>)

 

[Deleted member 107796]

99% of us will never even have to draw their weapon in a hostile situation. The 9mm is lighter and easier to carry. Spare mags with the same round count are also lighter and smaller compared to the 40. Them's the facts.

Couple that with less recoil, cheaper for Joe Sixpack (that would be me) to shoot, and easier, faster, follow-up shots, and its no contest as to why the 9 is more popular.

It might be different if the 9 were an ineffective round, but that's simply not the case. I can respect the anecdote of a meth-head who took four 9mm slugs and kept coming, but he might have done the same with four 40SW slugs. Alas, we'll never know.

Valid points, but all things being equal, of course. The 9 still has to shoot smoothly. A cheap 9mm still won't outperform a well designed 40 or other. IMO, extreme lightness is great for carry but bad for accuracy.

 

[Sako284]

I can respect the anecdote of a meth-head who took four 9mm slugs and kept coming, but he might have done the same with four 40SW slugs. Alas, we'll never know.

He took 11 9mm slugs. 4 where "fatal". The rest where in the hips, bicep, forearms leg etc. 11 hits from 2 officers in ~ 10 seconds which resulted in a 5 minute wrestling match over guns and tasers.

More rounds where applied to that confrontation than have been in the previous 4 confrontations. Again this is not apples to apples as people are different. One of those 9mms missed his femoral artery by less than a quarter of an inch. A good 40 would probably have got the artery.

 

[Quintus]

IMO, extreme lightness is great for carry but bad for accuracy.

This is true, but if it is not comfortable enough to get carried every day, it doesn't. If you actually need it, a light flippy 9 you carried is waaay more effective than the top shelf 40 you left at home. Again that human nature thing.

 

[Quintus]

One of those 9mms missed his femoral artery by less than a quarter of an inch. A good 40 would probably have got the artery.

That 40 round may have missed the leg all together. It may have also shattered the femur. If the dude had done heroin instead of meth he probably would have died in the bathroom. It would be cool to 'Butterfly Effect' that scenario assuming the end result ultimately was the same.

 

[Frog4aday]

He took 11 9mm slugs. 4 where "fatal". The rest where in the hips, bicep, forearms leg etc. 11 hits from 2 officers in ~ 10 seconds which resulted in a 5 minute wrestling match over guns and tasers.

More rounds where applied to that confrontation than have been in the previous 4 confrontations. Again this is not apples to apples as people are different. One of those 9mms missed his femoral artery by less than a quarter of an inch. A good 40 would probably have got the artery.

Then there is the guy that took 14 hits from a .45ACP (six hits being "fatal") before finally calling it quits. https://www.policeone.com/officer-s...5-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job-clGBbLYpnqqHxwMq/
Some bad guys just don't get the memo that bigger is supposed to be better & they should quit.

 

[Sako284]

Then there is the guy that took 14 hits from a .45ACP (six hits being "fatal") before finally calling it quits. https://www.policeone.com/officer-s...5-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job-clGBbLYpnqqHxwMq/
Some bad guys just don't get the memo that bigger is supposed to be better & they should quit.

I've seen that multiple times as well. If bigger isn't better I guess we should tackle charging brown bears with 223s? Kinda stupid isn't it?

As I've previously stated. Handguns suck. 380s are garbage. 9mm sucks. 45 suck less then 9s. 40s suck less than 45s and 10mms suck less than all the above.


as far as individuals go I say carry the most handgun you can comfortably shoot accurately under stress. For a 105# 5'3 woman that may be a 9mm s&w shield. For a 250# 6'5 man that may be a glock 20. Arming a department is a separate issue as you will have both giant men and tiny women on the same force. Most women can't handle a full power 10mm. Most men can handle more than a 9mm.

 

[Creedmoor shooter]

I sold my 40 for a 9mm. Simply because its cheaper and easier to shoot. If I have to depend my life on something I want to train as much as I can. I didnt have issues with the 40 cal. Still love it. 9mm is just easier, and I can shoot faster. I really dont want to have to depend my life on any pistol. They all suck. But I'm going to take the 9mm because I can get more rounds on target faster. Thats alittle more important to me than a smidge more power. I only conceal carry not LEO. If I was a LEO then I may change my mind.

 

[flyguy1]

I've seen that multiple times as well. If bigger isn't better I guess we should tackle charging brown bears with 223s? Kinda stupid isn't it?

As I've previously stated. Handguns suck. 380s are garbage. 9mm sucks. 45 suck less then 9s. 40s suck less than 45s and 10mms suck less than all the above.


as far as individuals go I say carry the most handgun you can comfortably shoot accurately under stress. For a 105# 5'3 woman that may be a 9mm s&w shield. For a 250# 6'5 man that may be a glock 20. Arming a department is a separate issue as you will have both giant men and tiny women on the same force. Most women can't handle a full power 10mm. Most men can handle more than a 9mm.

Who decides you can't carry what you want as long as you buy your own weapon and ammo in your locality?