Why Hammer Bullets Are Always Faster

[cantfixstupid]

For me the two things I watch most closely would be how the bolt lift and extraction feel from mild to where pressure starts building and the case face with ejector marks. Primers are difficult to read. Some guns smash them flat regardless of the charge. Same with cratering. When getting to where we think we are pushing but maybe not sure we will decap and reprime to see if the primer pocket is remaining tight and if it will continue to stay tight for several shots. Some rifles will show an ejector mark no matter the charge. If this is the case then watch that ejector mark and when it starts to change from the mild charge then you know you are starting to stress the brass. All of the normal indicators together tell the story. This is why I like to start low and work up so that you can see and feel changes in the force to cycle the action and signs on the brass. We do use a chrono all the time. Velocity is most certainly an indicator of pressure, but not the only indicator. It is part of the total story gathered from all of the indicators. We have seen over pressure on everything but the vel. This is what I call false pressure. When we have hard bolt lift and punished brass with low vel. The 6.5 PRC is a great example of this. The cartridge does not like magnum primers. I think because the cartridge is very efficient the mag primer causes the ignition to happen too rapidly putting all the pressure in the chamber and not stretching it down the barrel. Changing from magnum primers to lr primers slows the ignition resulting in a smoother or slower burn spreading the pressure out and no longer punishing the brass. By switching to lr primers in the PRC we were able to see 4g more charge and 200 fps increase with the same indication of pressure. When we first started loading the PRC we thought Nosler was just way out of line on their velocity. We just couldn't come close to it. Most cartridges we only see about 30fps change with magnum to lr primers. So, when it comes to velocity if your other pressure indicators are high but not the vel there is probably something wrong with your recipe or maybe a barrel issue. If your pressure indicators are high as well as your vel, then you are certainly pushing. Like many of you it wasn't too long ago that I loaded without ever using a chrono. We did not have the capability. It is now very much a crutch for me. I can't imagine loading without it.

When loading an Absolute for the first time in a given cartridge I still use the chrono but have to rely more heavily on the other pressure indicators. The chrono now lets me see consistency of gain as the charge goes up and if we are seeing a jump in pressure with large increases in vel telling us so. Once a load is completed in a rifle with an Absolute then we can use that vel data to tell us in the next rifle when we are getting into the area of pressure. It now becomes more relevant in the total data indicating pressure.

I hope this makes sense.

The LR Magnum verses LR Primers concept changed the way I reload in all my short magnums, it just so much more efficient, seems someone would have figured that out long ago, someone probably did just forgot the tell anyone. As you said its a marked difference in velocity in some but not all. I read about it somewhere 4 or 5 years ago, and tried it in 257Bee, 7 SAUM and 270 WSM, this change improved velocity and SD in all 3!

 

[jessej]

been thinking about this thread the last few days. It got me to thinking. Maybe when we designed Hammer Bullets we didn't design a bullet that has lower engraving pressure that results in higher velocity potential than conventional bullets at equal pressure. I'm thinking maybe we accidently came up with a pressure masking technology that makes it so that hand loaders are not able to detect normal pressure signs. We have designed a bullet that keeps pressure from showing on the brass or the action of a rifle but has massive pressure in the barrel that can only be detected by the use of a pressure test barrel.

One more step Steve and Brian.

 

[ButterBean]

No doubt it's been mentioned b4 but what would you list as the pressure indicators?

"This is why we tell loaders that they should be very experienced with reading pressure signs to load for the Absolute that does not line up well with conventional data."

For me the two things I watch most closely would be how the bolt lift and extraction feel from mild to where pressure starts building and the case face with ejector marks. Primers are difficult to read. Some guns smash them flat regardless of the charge. Same with cratering. When getting to where we think we are pushing but maybe not sure we will decap and reprime to see if the primer pocket is remaining tight and if it will continue to stay tight for several shots. Some rifles will show an ejector mark no matter the charge. If this is the case then watch that ejector mark and when it starts to change from the mild charge then you know you are starting to stress the brass. All of the normal indicators together tell the story. This is why I like to start low and work up so that you can see and feel changes in the force to cycle the action and signs on the brass. We do use a chrono all the time. Velocity is most certainly an indicator of pressure, but not the only indicator. It is part of the total story gathered from all of the indicators. We have seen over pressure on everything but the vel. This is what I call false pressure. When we have hard bolt lift and punished brass with low vel. The 6.5 PRC is a great example of this. The cartridge does not like magnum primers. I think because the cartridge is very efficient the mag primer causes the ignition to happen too rapidly putting all the pressure in the chamber and not stretching it down the barrel. Changing from magnum primers to lr primers slows the ignition resulting in a smoother or slower burn spreading the pressure out and no longer punishing the brass. By switching to lr primers in the PRC we were able to see 4g more charge and 200 fps increase with the same indication of pressure. When we first started loading the PRC we thought Nosler was just way out of line on their velocity. We just couldn't come close to it. Most cartridges we only see about 30fps change with magnum to lr primers. So, when it comes to velocity if your other pressure indicators are high but not the vel there is probably something wrong with your recipe or maybe a barrel issue. If your pressure indicators are high as well as your vel, then you are certainly pushing. Like many of you it wasn't too long ago that I loaded without ever using a chrono. We did not have the capability. It is now very much a crutch for me. I can't imagine loading without it.

When loading an Absolute for the first time in a given cartridge I still use the chrono but have to rely more heavily on the other pressure indicators. The chrono now lets me see consistency of gain as the charge goes up and if we are seeing a jump in pressure with large increases in vel telling us so. Once a load is completed in a rifle with an Absolute then we can use that vel data to tell us in the next rifle when we are getting into the area of pressure. It now becomes more relevant in the total data indicating pressure.

I hope this makes sense.

I agree with Steve here and have seen the same results, I use a LR primer in everything I shoot except the Mule, As for pressure signs I concentrate on bolt lift as well and nor do I look at primers anymore, please load to what you feel is safe but if you stop at a flat or cratered primer there's prolly some more left in it, once again please stay safe and if anyone needs anything just holler 812-264-6183
Bean

 

[Muddyboots]

Switched to LR primers in 300WSM few years ago from similar primer discussion. Everything improved across the board!

 

[RockyMtnMT]

We have always been mag primer guys. With the thinking process that the lower engraving pressure bullet does better with a quicker start getting it going toward getting to pressure. I am definitely not as set on this as I once was.

 

[Rich Coyle]

RockyMtnMT,

Would you go for LR primers in 7-.338 RUM or 8-7Wea Mag? What powders would you try in such wildcats?

 

[RockyMtnMT]

RockyMtnMT,

Would you go for LR primers in 7-.338 RUM or 8-7Wea Mag? What powders would you try in such wildcats?

I think mag primers are going to be the better bet in either of these. I figure something like N570 for the 7mm and rl23 for the 8mm. That is my gut feeling without researching.

 

[Rich Coyle]

Thanks. Let me be the first to wish you a Merry Christmas. I hope you enjoy your new year as much as I have enjoyed a recent gift.

 

[smokey3]

Switched to LR primers in 300WSM few years ago from similar primer discussion. Everything improved across the board!

I was having problems a few years ago with my 300 WM and ES/SD using every brand of magnum primers. I switched to 210M primers and everything seemed to correct itself automagically , Amazing.

 

[Window]

The LR Magnum verses LR Primers concept changed the way I reload in all my short magnums, it just so much more efficient, seems someone would have figured that out long ago, someone probably did just forgot the tell anyone. As you said its a marked difference in velocity in some but not all. I read about it somewhere 4 or 5 years ago, and tried it in 257Bee, 7 SAUM and 270 WSM, this change improved velocity and SD in all 3!

I'd love to get more details.

 

[Muddyboots]

Switched to LR primers in 300WSM few years ago from similar primer discussion. Everything improved across the board!

I have no way to prove this opinion but I believe web expansion went down (measured 0.200 up from base) and very rarely get a clicker when I went to LR primer in the 300WSM. My 700SA 300WSM even with new barrel was PITA with ES SD clickers. Everything improved when swapped over to LR. Its now whole different cartridge to me plus shooting 124HH lasers! Its now fun to shoot.

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

When I started coating bullets years ago, the first thing I noticed was a reduction in velocity due to a reduction in bore friction. Uncoated bullets always shot faster with the same load.
The Hammer results are interesting because my past experience would leave me to believe that if the Hammers were producing less friction, then they would also show a reduction in velocity. The fact that the OP found the velocity to be increased lead me to conclude that the pressure must be higher, not lower.

It would be interesting if someone who had pressure testing equipment would actually check the pressure of the two different bullets with the same load. This is the only way to, conclusively, know the answer.

I've seen exactly the same thing... less drag for a given powder charge in a given cartridge with a certain weight pill always has equaled less velocity...
And I have had pressure testing equipment on one of my rifles. I'm thinking of doing so again too, as there is a lot of disagreeing data out there for some cartridges. I had a 7stw with a strain gauge. What I found in that cartridge is pressure signs like a shiner on the case head do not show up until around 75 Kpsi. Hard bolt lift, etc. are after that. So you really don't want to buy a used rifle from a guy that's been complaining about "clickers" as he's beat the daylights out of it.

 

[Muddyboots]

Ok, I forecasted 47 pages so c'mon its slowing down a bit!

 

[Mike Matteson]

I still use the primers as signs of pressure. That maybe not the best, but I am very close to max at that time. I don't use MRP, but at the same time I don't have any rifles that go into into the 80+ gr area anyway. That's where I feel is the dividing line is on MRP's begin to come into play.