Why Hammer Bullets Are Always Faster

[ButterBean]

I concur, I think some folks are looking at it backwards

 

[cajun]

I could be wrong but I'm betting that if Ed had started at lower charge weights the Hammer would have shown lower vel than the conventional bullet for the same charge. Indicating lower pressure. There comes a point in the work up that the lower engraving pressure bullet will cross the path of the higher engraving pressure bullet for vel, not pressure. The higher engraving pressure bullet will reach it's max load at lower vel than the lower engraving pressure bullet does at the same vel.

Let's take an example of the 140g Absolute Hammer. The Absolutes have extremely low engraving pressure which will exaggerate the results. Here is our first workup with the 140g Absolute Hammer in my 280ai 22" Proof 1-8" twist. Seated at 3.442" coal with Fed 215m primer and Peterson brass. We started at 56g H100v. That is the max listed load on Hodgdon data for a 140g Nosler BT. Hodgdon data shows an expected vel of 3068 fps for this max load and a pressure of 60,700 psi. Our vel at 56g H100v was 2820 fps. In the world that I come from that is indicating very low pressure. In fact it indicates lower pressure than their listed start load of 52.6g at a vel of 2883 fps. That's just crazy and not possible for same weight bullets, unless I have the spare money to spend on an actual pressure test barrel. Knowing that vel is just one of the signs of pressure, we decided to jump 3g of powder for the next shot. This put us at a vel of 3154 fps. According to some we were at the danger point at this time. Knowing that vel is one indicator of pressure, not the only indicator, we continued to ladder up in 1g increments. This rifle was built on a Win model 70 action. At the time of development the bolt had not had the firing pin hole bushed, so it had a problem with cratering primers due to the large hole. It has since been fixed. We took this load up to 3427 fps in nice predictable 45 fps gains per grain of powder. At that point we stopped due to the cratering of the primer being too much. We would have loaded there if the bolt had been bushed but backed off a grain to make it comfortable. The Peterson brass would take this load multiple times without loosening the primer pocket and no high pressure indicators on the brass.

Because of the very low engraving pressure on the Absolutes (not the other Hammers) we have used the method of looking at data for similar weight bullets, look for a powder that is low in load density, and start with the max listed load. This will most often yeild a vel that is several hundred fps slower than would be expected. Why? Because the engraving pressure is very low. Now the trick is to see if you can get to pressure before you run out of case space. If you can't get to pressure before running out of case space then you have to look at this collected data to determine where to start with a faster powder. The same way you develop a load for a wildcat cartridge that has no data. You start with something that is a known value and work from there to find the potential. For some people the idea of working with a wildcat cartridge is terrifying. For those people it is best to stick with factory cartridges and never step out of the norm. For some people it simply is not possible to create something new that works beyond the accepted levels of normal, so when someone does, they cry foul. Look at @Fiftydriver, and @elkaholic, along with many others that have pushed the line of normal with new cartridges. They get called all kinds of names and told by the chattering class that they are somehow lying about their results. I have gotten the same treatment since the day we started. I would post load development results and inevitably be told that I just got lucky. That there is no way that a load can be done in that few of shots. I accepted this, thinking maybe I did just get lucky. Our bullets were as new to us as anyone else. Then came a day I got told that I was just lucky again. At that point I had to answer that I guess I am just lucky all the time. We get told that our copper bullet cannot be any different than any other copper bullet. Afterall copper is copper, regardless of the alloy. There is no way that Hammer Bullets can have different terminal performance characteristics than other copper bullets. This always coming from the same chattering class of people. The best part of the chattering class of "You can't do that" people have almost always never even tried.

Sometimes I find the chattering class amusing and sometimes tiring. In the end I need to be thankful for them. They do a better job of helping us get the word out about what we are doing than we could do on our own. They get proven wrong time after time which is way better than any promotional material I can come up with.

Happy New Year all! Let's keep pushing the envelope!

The hogdon data is for a 24" barrel. So with a 22' it would be closer to 3000 fps. Like I said in another post you see the same thing with moly coated bullets. At max powder charge the velocity is lower. So you add 3 grains of powder and now you are 150 fps over max. I'd be willing to bet the farm at this point you are around hogdons 60k at least. At the end of the day pressure and velocity are related. Like someone posted I can see 100-150 fps. But 400. I also think that as a manufacturer that posting data like this is a big liability in todays world. Wildcatting is a personal choice. Choosing to go past published data is a personal choice. Making a bullet and putting data out there that is way over the norm with only subjective test data that it is safe seems like a huge liability issue. I wish you well.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

A

The hogdon data is for a 24" barrel. So with a 22' it would be closer to 3000 fps. Like I said in another post you see the same thing with moly coated bullets. At max powder charge the velocity is lower. So you add 3 grains of powder and now you are 150 fps over max. I'd be willing to bet the farm at this point you are around hogdons 60k at least. At the end of the day pressure and velocity are related. Like someone posted I can see 100-150 fps. But 400. I also think that as a manufacturer that posting data like this is a big liability in todays world. Wildcatting is a personal choice. Choosing to go past published data is a personal choice. Making a bullet and putting data out there that is way over the norm with only subjective test data that it is safe seems like a huge liability issue. I wish you well

A longer barrel will allow you to run a slower powder to extend the burn time in the longer barrel producing more velocity. A shorter barrel can't take advantage of the longer burn time making it unable to burn all of the powder. Less engraving pressure needs less barrel length and faster powder to get to max pressure. Results are faster velocity with less pressure and shorter barrels. Like larger bore cartridges use faster powder than smaller bore for the same bullet weight. It gets tough to find a powder slow enough to use in a 30" barrel 375 rum. You can usually get the same or better results with a 24" barrel.

I wish you well too.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

The hogdon data is for a 24" barrel. So with a 22' it would be closer to 3000 fps. Like I said in another post you see the same thing with moly coated bullets. At max powder charge the velocity is lower. So you add 3 grains of powder and now you are 150 fps over max. I'd be willing to bet the farm at this point you are around hogdons 60k at least. At the end of the day pressure and velocity are related. Like someone posted I can see 100-150 fps. But 400. I also think that as a manufacturer that posting data like this is a big liability in todays world. Wildcatting is a personal choice. Choosing to go past published data is a personal choice. Making a bullet and putting data out there that is way over the norm with only subjective test data that it is safe seems like a huge liability issue. I wish you well.

If you run any other bullet 400 fps over data it will likely lock up the rifle. I think we agree on this. With the Absolute example I have in the 280ai there were no signs of over pressure in the rifle or indicated on the brass. Yet it seems you are saying the pressure is just as high as the conventional bullet that locked up the rifle at 400 fps over data. Do I have your thinking correct?

 

[ButterBean]

Once again I'm gonna say there is no manual that applies to any of the Hammer Bullets, No data that is published will line up or even come close IMO,the Nosler data is a good starting point and that's it, folks that get it have got it and are off running, those that don't get it probably never will and that's fine but trying to argue a point with all the folks that "Get It" ……… I'm not even gonna start that fire again. Shoot whatever bullet you want to as I really don't care but please don't try to argue a point unless you have tried it for yourself

 

[cajun]

If you run any other bullet 400 fps over data it will likely lock up the rifle. I think we agree on this. With the Absolute example I have in the 280ai there were no signs of over pressure in the rifle or indicated on the brass. Yet it seems you are saying the pressure is just as high as the conventional bullet that locked up the rifle at 400 fps over data. Do I have your thinking correct?

Thats not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is those loads are over pressure. Not enough to lock up the rifle but likely over pressure. You read the link to the John Barness article where an ammo company tested an accepted wildcat load and found it was 70-75 k. That is what you guys are doing. As a bullet maker you have a responsibility to provide data that adheres to saami specs and will be safe in any rifle. Thats what the big boys do. Instead you share data that is basically wildcat data and say load at your own risk.

 

[2buffalo]

Everything is at your own risk. Even th "big boys" don't guarantee if you go to their maximum you won't have a problem. They expect you to look at pressure signs which anyone with a half a brain can do. You just seem to want other people to do your work foe you and when they do you don't like the result. So rather than spending the time and money to do it yourself you get on an internet forum and tell people they are wrong. If you don't like the facts that are presented to you why don't you just move along or test it yourself and prove them wrong?

 

[Rich Coyle]

Which is why there is a standardized pressure testing procedure that is descibed by saami including reference ammo.

I keep hearing hammers get xfps more. If that is only in your gun then it should not be a claim that gets repeated as it may not in next gun given this rationale

Lou

Can you sight posters who stated their Hammer bullet velocity was the same or less than they achieved with other bullet brands?

 

[59FLH]

I could be wrong but I'm betting that if Ed had started at lower charge weights the Hammer would have shown lower vel than the conventional bullet for the same charge. Indicating lower pressure. There comes a point in the work up that the lower engraving pressure bullet will cross the path of the higher engraving pressure bullet for vel, not pressure. The higher engraving pressure bullet will reach it's max load at lower vel than the lower engraving pressure bullet does at the same vel.

Let's take an example of the 140g Absolute Hammer. The Absolutes have extremely low engraving pressure which will exaggerate the results. Here is our first workup with the 140g Absolute Hammer in my 280ai 22" Proof 1-8" twist. Seated at 3.442" coal with Fed 215m primer and Peterson brass. We started at 56g H100v. That is the max listed load on Hodgdon data for a 140g Nosler BT. Hodgdon data shows an expected vel of 3068 fps for this max load and a pressure of 60,700 psi. Our vel at 56g H100v was 2820 fps. In the world that I come from that is indicating very low pressure. In fact it indicates lower pressure than their listed start load of 52.6g at a vel of 2883 fps. That's just crazy and not possible for same weight bullets, unless I have the spare money to spend on an actual pressure test barrel. Knowing that vel is just one of the signs of pressure, we decided to jump 3g of powder for the next shot. This put us at a vel of 3154 fps. According to some we were at the danger point at this time. Knowing that vel is one indicator of pressure, not the only indicator, we continued to ladder up in 1g increments. This rifle was built on a Win model 70 action. At the time of development the bolt had not had the firing pin hole bushed, so it had a problem with cratering primers due to the large hole. It has since been fixed. We took this load up to 3427 fps in nice predictable 45 fps gains per grain of powder. At that point we stopped due to the cratering of the primer being too much. We would have loaded there if the bolt had been bushed but backed off a grain to make it comfortable. The Peterson brass would take this load multiple times without loosening the primer pocket and no high pressure indicators on the brass.

Because of the very low engraving pressure on the Absolutes (not the other Hammers) we have used the method of looking at data for similar weight bullets, look for a powder that is low in load density, and start with the max listed load. This will most often yeild a vel that is several hundred fps slower than would be expected. Why? Because the engraving pressure is very low. Now the trick is to see if you can get to pressure before you run out of case space. If you can't get to pressure before running out of case space then you have to look at this collected data to determine where to start with a faster powder. The same way you develop a load for a wildcat cartridge that has no data. You start with something that is a known value and work from there to find the potential. For some people the idea of working with a wildcat cartridge is terrifying. For those people it is best to stick with factory cartridges and never step out of the norm. For some people it simply is not possible to create something new that works beyond the accepted levels of normal, so when someone does, they cry foul. Look at @Fiftydriver, and @elkaholic, along with many others that have pushed the line of normal with new cartridges. They get called all kinds of names and told by the chattering class that they are somehow lying about their results. I have gotten the same treatment since the day we started. I would post load development results and inevitably be told that I just got lucky. That there is no way that a load can be done in that few of shots. I accepted this, thinking maybe I did just get lucky. Our bullets were as new to us as anyone else. Then came a day I got told that I was just lucky again. At that point I had to answer that I guess I am just lucky all the time. We get told that our copper bullet cannot be any different than any other copper bullet. Afterall copper is copper, regardless of the alloy. There is no way that Hammer Bullets can have different terminal performance characteristics than other copper bullets. This always coming from the same chattering class of people. The best part of the chattering class of "You can't do that" people have almost always never even tried.

Sometimes I find the chattering class amusing and sometimes tiring. In the end I need to be thankful for them. They do a better job of helping us get the word out about what we are doing than we could do on our own. They get proven wrong time after time which is way better than any promotional material I can come up with.

Happy New Year all! Let's keep pushing the envelope!

Steve, what was the velocity of the 140 BT with the same charge of 65 gn of H100V?

 

[cajun]

Everything is at your own risk. Even th "big boys" don't guarantee if you go to their maximum you won't have a problem. They expect you to look at pressure signs which anyone with a half a brain can do. You just seem to want other people to do your work foe you and when they do you don't like the result. So rather than spending the time and money to do it yourself you get on an internet forum and tell people they are wrong. If you don't like the facts that are presented to you why don't you just move along or test it yourself and prove them wrong?

No but the big boys especially the powder companies pressure test their stuff. And they all say " do not exceed maximum loads". What they mean is do not exceed maximum velocity. Depending on your rifle it may take a little less or a little more powder to get to the max velocity. But pressure and velocity run hand in hand with normal bullets. A responsible reloader knows that if after sourcing multiple data sources that if 3000 fps is max with the bullet powder combo then he works up to that. The bullet and powder companies dont say well we loaded to 400 fps over max and the bolt didnt lock up so we must be good.

 

[cajun]

Everything is at your own risk. Even th "big boys" don't guarantee if you go to their maximum you won't have a problem. They expect you to look at pressure signs which anyone with a half a brain can do. You just seem to want other people to do your work foe you and when they do you don't like the result. So rather than spending the time and money to do it yourself you get on an internet forum and tell people they are wrong. If you don't like the facts that are presented to you why don't you just move along or test it yourself and prove them wrong?

Because I'm not the one selling bullets and making these claims.

 

[adam32+P]

If you run any other bullet 400 fps over data it will likely lock up the rifle. I think we agree on this. With the Absolute example I have in the 280ai there were no signs of over pressure in the rifle or indicated on the brass. Yet it seems you are saying the pressure is just as high as the conventional bullet that locked up the rifle at 400 fps over data. Do I have your thinking correct?

The only thing I will mention, and I'm sure you already know. But, reading pressure by looking at the brass in an AI cartridge can be a recipe for disaster. Min case taper and sharp shoulders mask most of the conventional signs and you won't know until the primer pops or the bolt locks up.

 

[ButterBean]

Thats not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is those loads are over pressure. Not enough to lock up the rifle but likely over pressure. You read the link to the John Barness article where an ammo company tested an accepted wildcat load and found it was 70-75 k. That is what you guys are doing. As a bullet maker you have a responsibility to provide data that adheres to saami specs and will be safe in any rifle. Thats what the big boys do. Instead you share data that is basically wildcat data and say load at your own risk.

Who died and made you the authority on what anyone has to do ? They are selling bullets not ammunition, good grief

 

[ButterBean]

The only thing I will mention, and I'm sure you already know. But, reading pressure by looking at the brass in an AI cartridge can be a recipe for disaster. Min case taper and sharp shoulders mask most of the conventional signs and you won't know until the primer pops or the bolt locks up.

So how should we be doing it ?