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Why Hammer Bullets Are Always Faster
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RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
That is a whole lot different than what you were saying a couple days ago. I guess now we are on the same page.
No. My whole thing is that you dont know how much velocity you get if any until pressure testing. I said hammers may get more velocity but nothing anybody is doing proves it
Some folks take it personally as a crack at their long established practices but they should not feel bad. Nobody can do it without pressure testing. A bullets characteristics (engraving pressue for ex) and how they compare to a different bullet and how that impacts velocity cannot be characterized with any certainty using a dial caliper or "pressure signs".
Lou
Some folks take it personally as a crack at their long established practices but they should not feel bad. Nobody can do it without pressure testing. A bullets characteristics (engraving pressue for ex) and how they compare to a different bullet and how that impacts velocity cannot be characterized with any certainty using a dial caliper or "pressure signs".
Lou
Calvin45
Well-Known Member
Okay but that holds true with literally any bullet. Some loads go faster than others. It's all blind faith apparently. Whether it's a hammer has nothing to do with it. Hammers do seem to consistently for many users allow higher velocity before pressure signs. That's not meaningless. It happens in enough cartridges for enough people to mean something. And I'm starting to think you're whole convoluted dialogue here boils down to "you don't know the psi without a pressure/strain gauge". Which obviously is true, no one in their right mind disputes that. Again, true for every handload, hammer or not.
We ain't gonna see this the same way and that's okay man.
Happy new year.
Not true. There is pressure tested results for a lot of bullets for reference. Hammer is claiming anywhere from 100 to 300 fps above other bullets. Nobody else is claiming this and no pressure tested shows a big delta between bullets though certain bullets may work better with different powders to get best velocity
Lou
Calvin45
Well-Known Member
Okay. But just because it yielded x pressure in a test rifle doesn't guarantee identical pressure in mine. Every rifle is a law unto itself up to a point. I refuse to believe that you actually refuse to understand that. It's why you shouldn't use a max handload from one rifle in a different rifle in the same chambering. I'm having a heck of a time figuring out how to reason with you or what you're even saying anymore.
No matter. It's all good. Maybe I'm a little slow on the draw haha.
Again, happy new year.
Agree and I understand your or my rifle may give different results. That is a different problem as in how our rifles compare to rifle used in pressure testing or somebody elses load data
This is how hammers compare to different bullets in same rifle and quantify results (pressure / velocity)
Lou
Most of us are just too **** polite and aren't interested in being grammar Nazis to even mention it, we knew what you meant.I have been spelling bearing surface wrong for as long as I can remember. I can't believe none of you knuckle heads has never corrected me before. Thanks a lot!
Calvin45
Well-Known Member
alright that is sensible enough and I admit it'd be nice to have pressur data for all bullets and powder combos in a perfect world
I'm curious if you'll at least admit that if hundreds of people are hitting pressure signs of a traditional manner at higher velocities with hammers than they do with near all other bullets of equal weight IT IS NOT MEANINGLESS! It is not blind, it is not a fluke, it doesn't just keep happening that way coincidentally by chance over and over again?
ShoNuff
Here is a simple reason I dont agree with this. In the first few minutes of the video that started this, the presenter showed how hammer bullets get 100 fps more velocity than an equivalent sierra (i think) bullet gets with same charge weight.
That is opposite of how engraving pressure works and shows the hammer is at higher pressure for the same charge weight. There is no free lunch. If he said I got lower pressure and added more powder then would make sense. I think I have heard this with absolutes but have not tried them. If that is case then probably will get more velocity but whether 50 or 150 I dont know
Lou
Give him time and you'll love the results. Speaking from experience...
Carey Farmer
Well-Known Member
Exactly.
That said, I really like Hammer Absolutes. In my rifles they shoot faster and more accurately than any other bullet I've tried.
Granted I don't have pressure test data but I'm pretty confident that with the soft-headed Norma brass I use for load development, and using Quickload tuned to match Hodgdon published pressure test data, I'm comparing different bullets at roughly the same max chamber pressure.
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
I could be wrong but I'm betting that if Ed had started at lower charge weights the Hammer would have shown lower vel than the conventional bullet for the same charge. Indicating lower pressure. There comes a point in the work up that the lower engraving pressure bullet will cross the path of the higher engraving pressure bullet for vel, not pressure. The higher engraving pressure bullet will reach it's max load at lower vel than the lower engraving pressure bullet does at the same vel.
Let's take an example of the 140g Absolute Hammer. The Absolutes have extremely low engraving pressure which will exaggerate the results. Here is our first workup with the 140g Absolute Hammer in my 280ai 22" Proof 1-8" twist. Seated at 3.442" coal with Fed 215m primer and Peterson brass. We started at 56g H100v. That is the max listed load on Hodgdon data for a 140g Nosler BT. Hodgdon data shows an expected vel of 3068 fps for this max load and a pressure of 60,700 psi. Our vel at 56g H100v was 2820 fps. In the world that I come from that is indicating very low pressure. In fact it indicates lower pressure than their listed start load of 52.6g at a vel of 2883 fps. That's just crazy and not possible for same weight bullets, unless I have the spare money to spend on an actual pressure test barrel. Knowing that vel is just one of the signs of pressure, we decided to jump 3g of powder for the next shot. This put us at a vel of 3154 fps. According to some we were at the danger point at this time. Knowing that vel is one indicator of pressure, not the only indicator, we continued to ladder up in 1g increments. This rifle was built on a Win model 70 action. At the time of development the bolt had not had the firing pin hole bushed, so it had a problem with cratering primers due to the large hole. It has since been fixed. We took this load up to 3427 fps in nice predictable 45 fps gains per grain of powder. At that point we stopped due to the cratering of the primer being too much. We would have loaded there if the bolt had been bushed but backed off a grain to make it comfortable. The Peterson brass would take this load multiple times without loosening the primer pocket and no high pressure indicators on the brass.
Because of the very low engraving pressure on the Absolutes (not the other Hammers) we have used the method of looking at data for similar weight bullets, look for a powder that is low in load density, and start with the max listed load. This will most often yeild a vel that is several hundred fps slower than would be expected. Why? Because the engraving pressure is very low. Now the trick is to see if you can get to pressure before you run out of case space. If you can't get to pressure before running out of case space then you have to look at this collected data to determine where to start with a faster powder. The same way you develop a load for a wildcat cartridge that has no data. You start with something that is a known value and work from there to find the potential. For some people the idea of working with a wildcat cartridge is terrifying. For those people it is best to stick with factory cartridges and never step out of the norm. For some people it simply is not possible to create something new that works beyond the accepted levels of normal, so when someone does, they cry foul. Look at @Fiftydriver, and @elkaholic, along with many others that have pushed the line of normal with new cartridges. They get called all kinds of names and told by the chattering class that they are somehow lying about their results. I have gotten the same treatment since the day we started. I would post load development results and inevitably be told that I just got lucky. That there is no way that a load can be done in that few of shots. I accepted this, thinking maybe I did just get lucky. Our bullets were as new to us as anyone else. Then came a day I got told that I was just lucky again. At that point I had to answer that I guess I am just lucky all the time. We get told that our copper bullet cannot be any different than any other copper bullet. Afterall copper is copper, regardless of the alloy. There is no way that Hammer Bullets can have different terminal performance characteristics than other copper bullets. This always coming from the same chattering class of people. The best part of the chattering class of "You can't do that" people have almost always never even tried.
Sometimes I find the chattering class amusing and sometimes tiring. In the end I need to be thankful for them. They do a better job of helping us get the word out about what we are doing than we could do on our own. They get proven wrong time after time which is way better than any promotional material I can come up with.
Happy New Year all! Let's keep pushing the envelope!
Let's take an example of the 140g Absolute Hammer. The Absolutes have extremely low engraving pressure which will exaggerate the results. Here is our first workup with the 140g Absolute Hammer in my 280ai 22" Proof 1-8" twist. Seated at 3.442" coal with Fed 215m primer and Peterson brass. We started at 56g H100v. That is the max listed load on Hodgdon data for a 140g Nosler BT. Hodgdon data shows an expected vel of 3068 fps for this max load and a pressure of 60,700 psi. Our vel at 56g H100v was 2820 fps. In the world that I come from that is indicating very low pressure. In fact it indicates lower pressure than their listed start load of 52.6g at a vel of 2883 fps. That's just crazy and not possible for same weight bullets, unless I have the spare money to spend on an actual pressure test barrel. Knowing that vel is just one of the signs of pressure, we decided to jump 3g of powder for the next shot. This put us at a vel of 3154 fps. According to some we were at the danger point at this time. Knowing that vel is one indicator of pressure, not the only indicator, we continued to ladder up in 1g increments. This rifle was built on a Win model 70 action. At the time of development the bolt had not had the firing pin hole bushed, so it had a problem with cratering primers due to the large hole. It has since been fixed. We took this load up to 3427 fps in nice predictable 45 fps gains per grain of powder. At that point we stopped due to the cratering of the primer being too much. We would have loaded there if the bolt had been bushed but backed off a grain to make it comfortable. The Peterson brass would take this load multiple times without loosening the primer pocket and no high pressure indicators on the brass.
Because of the very low engraving pressure on the Absolutes (not the other Hammers) we have used the method of looking at data for similar weight bullets, look for a powder that is low in load density, and start with the max listed load. This will most often yeild a vel that is several hundred fps slower than would be expected. Why? Because the engraving pressure is very low. Now the trick is to see if you can get to pressure before you run out of case space. If you can't get to pressure before running out of case space then you have to look at this collected data to determine where to start with a faster powder. The same way you develop a load for a wildcat cartridge that has no data. You start with something that is a known value and work from there to find the potential. For some people the idea of working with a wildcat cartridge is terrifying. For those people it is best to stick with factory cartridges and never step out of the norm. For some people it simply is not possible to create something new that works beyond the accepted levels of normal, so when someone does, they cry foul. Look at @Fiftydriver, and @elkaholic, along with many others that have pushed the line of normal with new cartridges. They get called all kinds of names and told by the chattering class that they are somehow lying about their results. I have gotten the same treatment since the day we started. I would post load development results and inevitably be told that I just got lucky. That there is no way that a load can be done in that few of shots. I accepted this, thinking maybe I did just get lucky. Our bullets were as new to us as anyone else. Then came a day I got told that I was just lucky again. At that point I had to answer that I guess I am just lucky all the time. We get told that our copper bullet cannot be any different than any other copper bullet. Afterall copper is copper, regardless of the alloy. There is no way that Hammer Bullets can have different terminal performance characteristics than other copper bullets. This always coming from the same chattering class of people. The best part of the chattering class of "You can't do that" people have almost always never even tried.
Sometimes I find the chattering class amusing and sometimes tiring. In the end I need to be thankful for them. They do a better job of helping us get the word out about what we are doing than we could do on our own. They get proven wrong time after time which is way better than any promotional material I can come up with.
Happy New Year all! Let's keep pushing the envelope!
