What is the max range of my elk hunting load?
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Silverdoctor
Active Member
Rich, this is not personal... I am sorry if I made you feel defensive about this. I am just trying to give some guidance to a young man who, like us, may develop a real love of elk hunting... I don't know what he can afford, but my guess is that he can get his hands on a bigger rifle that is more appropriate. I don't hold myself out as some authority on the technical aspects of long range hunting... there are many folks on this website who can offer better advice on shooting than I can... but, I have spent a lot of years hunting and, much like Colon Powell's attitude toward war, I go in with enough force to know I can get the job done. I love the outdoors and would just like to provide some guidance that is reasonable to a young hunter starting out on what I hope is a long and successful road... please join me in that effort. I don't think we really disagree... do we?
elkaholic
Well-Known Member
T3-OleMan
Well-Known Member
Another way to look at it.......?
What is the cost to get a new dedicated Good ELK hunter rolling these days.
So he screws one up.....big deal.... all that have ELK hunted for twenty years and have not screwed up at least one..... beat me up!
Kid sounded like he was doing his home work trying to do every thing right and here we go again.
Go back in time......Walk a mile in his shoes or hers. I think the cost to reward benefit would be in our favor.
Have a nice day and pay respects to those this W/E who paid the ultimate price so we can go hunting.
GOD BLESS & pass the AMMO!
What is the cost to get a new dedicated Good ELK hunter rolling these days.
So he screws one up.....big deal.... all that have ELK hunted for twenty years and have not screwed up at least one..... beat me up!
Kid sounded like he was doing his home work trying to do every thing right and here we go again.
Go back in time......Walk a mile in his shoes or hers. I think the cost to reward benefit would be in our favor.
Have a nice day and pay respects to those this W/E who paid the ultimate price so we can go hunting.
GOD BLESS & pass the AMMO!
Jordan Smith
Well-Known Member
I could care less about energy figures. As long as the bullet is big enough to cause a large enough wound cavity to quickly disable the animal, and as along as that bullet impacts at sufficient velocity to properly expand, then I'm happy.
I've used an inferior bullet to kill critters with the .25-06 at just shy of 1000. The 115 VLD would have made it that much easier and more effective to kill game.
I'm thinkin' elk have a tough time reading energy charts, since I recall seeing a video of a nice cow falling DRT to a .243 at beyond 650 yards. A 105gr VLD simply made its way into the chest cavity, wrecked her vitals, and her day was over.
I've used an inferior bullet to kill critters with the .25-06 at just shy of 1000. The 115 VLD would have made it that much easier and more effective to kill game.
I'm thinkin' elk have a tough time reading energy charts, since I recall seeing a video of a nice cow falling DRT to a .243 at beyond 650 yards. A 105gr VLD simply made its way into the chest cavity, wrecked her vitals, and her day was over.
650 y + with a 243.......
Do you honestly believe if 100 elk were to be taken at +650 with a 243 the success rate would be 90% +??
WildRose
Well-Known Member
Of course not. Not all weapons are capable of that kind of accuracy and only a tiny percentage of shootes will ever be proficient enough to get the job done no matter how well equipped.
You seem awfully hung up on absolutes.
There are none in long range shooting other than to say that if you don't put it where it's supposed to be you won't get the desired result.
When you get beyond 600yds, the variables become so hard to nail down that 100% precision simply isn't possible.
We equip ourselves with the best weapons and technology we can to reduce those variables as much as possible but many of them such as shifting winds, changes in barometric pressure, updrafts and down drafts will always play a factor in the field.
There's at least as much art to long range shooting as there is science. I've known some extremely gifted shooters that had no concept of the science, but still got the job done. I've known some extremely intelligent and well educated guys that couldn't hit a barn broadside outside of 300yds.
Forget the 90% this and 100% that and you'll start to get an understanding of long range shooting.
Put a few thousand rounds down range between 600-1,000yds keeping good notes on everything affecting the shot from brass type to powders, to bullets, rifles, scopes, wind, temp, angles etc and over time you'll get a very good understanding of the sport.
Jordan Smith
Well-Known Member
If all 100 bullets were sent into the ribs, expanded, and punched a hole through the lungs- yes.
Alan Griffith
Well-Known Member
I'm going to wade in here....sorta. An acquaintance of mine, Goodgrouper, who used to frequent this board (you can search his name here on LRH.com) and to me, is the ultimate LRH, answered my question a few summers back via email. He sent the following when asked about LRH for elk.
Quote from Goodgrouper.
"I have killed several spike elk with around 900 ft/lbs of energy. I have also taken the shoulder blades and hips of some of my cow elk and shot them at varying distances with different calibers. 800 ft/lbs broke them very easily. Of course, there was no hide on them and only a little meat.
I think I'd limit a big bull to 1000 ft/lbs, especially if he was in the rut. It would also boil down to where you hit them. I always shoot for the shoulder/spine area with the intent of smashing structure up. IF you believe in the heart/lung shot, much less energy is required. A friend of mine killed a bull on the Monroe last year with a 95 grain Berger VLD from a 243 improved at 850 yards. He hit it in the middle of the lungs and it blew them up like a bomb. Bull was chasing cows and filled up his lungs with blood very quickly and died within 50 yards.
Also, kinetic energy is only half the quation of terminal performance. You must also consider bullet construction. A Barnes x bullet and a Nosler Accubond could have identical kinetic energies but will have vastly different effects once inside the animal.
Minimum velocity to properly expand a bullet will vary by bullet design. The number is very high for bullets made completely of copper and much lower for thin jacketed, high ogive bullets."
GG makes his living in the LR arena. He's the type of guy who will take a bullet and test it's expansion properties at LR; several times over to verify it's terminal abilities. He literally lives and breathes this stuff as it's his passion, hobby and profession. Personally, I take him at his word and run with it. He's been there, done it and/or seen MANY do it.
If the shooter and his equipment are up to the task, so be it. No one person needs the blessing of anyone on this or any other forum to go forth and hunt at short or long range. This is a LONG RANGE HUNTING forum. If a person has a problem with that, go else where and take your opinion with you. If that person can keep an open mind, stay civil and respond in a well thought out and responsible manner, you're welcome.
Have a nice day
Alan
Quote from Goodgrouper.
"I have killed several spike elk with around 900 ft/lbs of energy. I have also taken the shoulder blades and hips of some of my cow elk and shot them at varying distances with different calibers. 800 ft/lbs broke them very easily. Of course, there was no hide on them and only a little meat.
I think I'd limit a big bull to 1000 ft/lbs, especially if he was in the rut. It would also boil down to where you hit them. I always shoot for the shoulder/spine area with the intent of smashing structure up. IF you believe in the heart/lung shot, much less energy is required. A friend of mine killed a bull on the Monroe last year with a 95 grain Berger VLD from a 243 improved at 850 yards. He hit it in the middle of the lungs and it blew them up like a bomb. Bull was chasing cows and filled up his lungs with blood very quickly and died within 50 yards.
Also, kinetic energy is only half the quation of terminal performance. You must also consider bullet construction. A Barnes x bullet and a Nosler Accubond could have identical kinetic energies but will have vastly different effects once inside the animal.
Minimum velocity to properly expand a bullet will vary by bullet design. The number is very high for bullets made completely of copper and much lower for thin jacketed, high ogive bullets."
GG makes his living in the LR arena. He's the type of guy who will take a bullet and test it's expansion properties at LR; several times over to verify it's terminal abilities. He literally lives and breathes this stuff as it's his passion, hobby and profession. Personally, I take him at his word and run with it. He's been there, done it and/or seen MANY do it.
If the shooter and his equipment are up to the task, so be it. No one person needs the blessing of anyone on this or any other forum to go forth and hunt at short or long range. This is a LONG RANGE HUNTING forum. If a person has a problem with that, go else where and take your opinion with you. If that person can keep an open mind, stay civil and respond in a well thought out and responsible manner, you're welcome.
Have a nice day
Alan
elkaholic
Well-Known Member
I'm going to wade in here....sorta. An acquaintance of mine, Goodgrouper, who used to frequent this board (you can search his name here on LRH.com) and to me, is the ultimate LRH, answered my question a few summers back via email. He sent the following when asked about LRH for elk.
Quote from Goodgrouper.
"I have killed several spike elk with around 900 ft/lbs of energy. I have also taken the shoulder blades and hips of some of my cow elk and shot them at varying distances with different calibers. 800 ft/lbs broke them very easily. Of course, there was no hide on them and only a little meat.
I think I'd limit a big bull to 1000 ft/lbs, especially if he was in the rut. It would also boil down to where you hit them. I always shoot for the shoulder/spine area with the intent of smashing structure up. IF you believe in the heart/lung shot, much less energy is required. A friend of mine killed a bull on the Monroe last year with a 95 grain Berger VLD from a 243 improved at 850 yards. He hit it in the middle of the lungs and it blew them up like a bomb. Bull was chasing cows and filled up his lungs with blood very quickly and died within 50 yards.
Also, kinetic energy is only half the quation of terminal performance. You must also consider bullet construction. A Barnes x bullet and a Nosler Accubond could have identical kinetic energies but will have vastly different effects once inside the animal.
Minimum velocity to properly expand a bullet will vary by bullet design. The number is very high for bullets made completely of copper and much lower for thin jacketed, high ogive bullets."
GG makes his living in the LR arena. He's the type of guy who will take a bullet and test it's expansion properties at LR; several times over to verify it's terminal abilities. He literally lives and breathes this stuff as it's his passion, hobby and profession. Personally, I take him at his word and run with it. He's been there, done it and/or seen MANY do it.
If the shooter and his equipment are up to the task, so be it. No one person needs the blessing of anyone on this or any other forum to go forth and hunt at short or long range. This is a LONG RANGE HUNTING forum. If a person has a problem with that, go else where and take your opinion with you. If that person can keep an open mind, stay civil and respond in a well thought out and responsible manner, you're welcome.
Have a nice day
Alan
Alan.....I remember Goodgrouper and after reading this post, it sounds like I could have posted it myself. I do a lot of testing, both on critters and in media and he is "right on the money"!. Does this make a .243 a .338? Of course not, but his points are very valid...Rich
Jordan Smith
Well-Known Member
I'm going to wade in here....sorta. An acquaintance of mine, Goodgrouper, who used to frequent this board (you can search his name here on LRH.com) and to me, is the ultimate LRH, answered my question a few summers back via email. He sent the following when asked about LRH for elk.
Quote from Goodgrouper.
"I have killed several spike elk with around 900 ft/lbs of energy. I have also taken the shoulder blades and hips of some of my cow elk and shot them at varying distances with different calibers. 800 ft/lbs broke them very easily. Of course, there was no hide on them and only a little meat.
I think I'd limit a big bull to 1000 ft/lbs, especially if he was in the rut. It would also boil down to where you hit them. I always shoot for the shoulder/spine area with the intent of smashing structure up. IF you believe in the heart/lung shot, much less energy is required. A friend of mine killed a bull on the Monroe last year with a 95 grain Berger VLD from a 243 improved at 850 yards. He hit it in the middle of the lungs and it blew them up like a bomb. Bull was chasing cows and filled up his lungs with blood very quickly and died within 50 yards.
Also, kinetic energy is only half the quation of terminal performance. You must also consider bullet construction. A Barnes x bullet and a Nosler Accubond could have identical kinetic energies but will have vastly different effects once inside the animal.
Minimum velocity to properly expand a bullet will vary by bullet design. The number is very high for bullets made completely of copper and much lower for thin jacketed, high ogive bullets."
GG makes his living in the LR arena. He's the type of guy who will take a bullet and test it's expansion properties at LR; several times over to verify it's terminal abilities. He literally lives and breathes this stuff as it's his passion, hobby and profession. Personally, I take him at his word and run with it. He's been there, done it and/or seen MANY do it.
If the shooter and his equipment are up to the task, so be it. No one person needs the blessing of anyone on this or any other forum to go forth and hunt at short or long range. This is a LONG RANGE HUNTING forum. If a person has a problem with that, go else where and take your opinion with you. If that person can keep an open mind, stay civil and respond in a well thought out and responsible manner, you're welcome.
Have a nice day
Alan
While there are a couple of detail-related errors in there, I certainly agree that he's right on the money in the basic principle of the post.
Broz
Well-Known Member
I'm going to wade in here....sorta. An acquaintance of mine, Goodgrouper, who used to frequent this board (you can search his name here on LRH.com) and to me, is the ultimate LRH, answered my question a few summers back via email. He sent the following when asked about LRH for elk.
Quote from Goodgrouper.
"I have killed several spike elk with around 900 ft/lbs of energy. I have also taken the shoulder blades and hips of some of my cow elk and shot them at varying distances with different calibers. 800 ft/lbs broke them very easily. Of course, there was no hide on them and only a little meat.
I think I'd limit a big bull to 1000 ft/lbs, especially if he was in the rut. It would also boil down to where you hit them. I always shoot for the shoulder/spine area with the intent of smashing structure up. IF you believe in the heart/lung shot, much less energy is required. A friend of mine killed a bull on the Monroe last year with a 95 grain Berger VLD from a 243 improved at 850 yards. He hit it in the middle of the lungs and it blew them up like a bomb. Bull was chasing cows and filled up his lungs with blood very quickly and died within 50 yards.
Also, kinetic energy is only half the quation of terminal performance. You must also consider bullet construction. A Barnes x bullet and a Nosler Accubond could have identical kinetic energies but will have vastly different effects once inside the animal.
Minimum velocity to properly expand a bullet will vary by bullet design. The number is very high for bullets made completely of copper and much lower for thin jacketed, high ogive bullets."
GG makes his living in the LR arena. He's the type of guy who will take a bullet and test it's expansion properties at LR; several times over to verify it's terminal abilities. He literally lives and breathes this stuff as it's his passion, hobby and profession. Personally, I take him at his word and run with it. He's been there, done it and/or seen MANY do it.
If the shooter and his equipment are up to the task, so be it. No one person needs the blessing of anyone on this or any other forum to go forth and hunt at short or long range. This is a LONG RANGE HUNTING forum. If a person has a problem with that, go else where and take your opinion with you. If that person can keep an open mind, stay civil and respond in a well thought out and responsible manner, you're welcome.
Have a nice day
Alan
Great post Alan!! I really miss GG and his posts. I use to love reading about his adventures. Where does he hang out these days?
Thanks
Jeff
Alan Griffith
Well-Known Member
Jeff,
He's still here. Shoot's mostly BR just behind my house. Does LOTS of load development and rifle building for customers. Not sure if he posts on any forums. I haven't asked him if he does.
Alan
Broz
Well-Known Member
Alan, If he is writing about what he is doing anywhere I would like to read it.
Thanks for the reply.
Jeff
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