I just Can't help it, 338-06 AI er ?

[Bobcatter]

I rode mules with a guy that hunted elk, Bear, deer with a 7 Rem mag using 120g Barnes TSX(3200 fps, which could be equaled with a 7/08 AI). Another riding partner used a 25/06 with 120g Partitions on elk, deer, and black bear. These are experienced hunters that hunted elk in three states. I used a 7 Rem mag with 140 and 160g Partitions, and they made fun of me!

In our Mule club, we trailered to hunt camps to help cook or pack out animals for friends. It was great fun. Our worst nightmare tracking jobs occurred from guys who just sighted in their HARD KICKERS and did not practice a few times a year.

Lesson learned, A man is more apt to practice a few times a year if he owns a rifle that does not hurt him. Also, a man is more apt to make a great shot on a rifle that does not hurt him.

A 338/06 Ai has incredible recoil, and neck issues are critical to remember, as no painkiller other than morphine will help.

OP, you do not need a hard kicking rifle to kill elk with, save your health, and think of the person who will have to take care of you.

Many years ago, my elk rifle was a 7x57 loaded with 140s, and I never had a bad experience with it on elk or deer.

Well recoil means a lot of different thigs to different folks! If you've ever owned a Ruger #3 in 45-70, and loaded it to 458 win mag velocity with 500 grain bullets, it will quickly change what you consider HARD KICKERS. or a 6" 475 Linebaugh in a 83 Freedom Arms shooting 440 grain slugs around 1400 fps it changes the meaning compared to a 454 casual which is much different than the 44 mag so many consider hard Kickers.

The last 338 I had was a 338 win mag, a 24" sporter weight Douglas barrel, built on the another 700 Remington LA, only in a McMillan General Purpose Hunting stock. That was back when I was a little whipper snapper in my 20's, Built by the Legendary Fred Sinclair,,, my mentor. Ya that was snappy, more so than the Hard Chrome 700 LA, that was a twin to the blued 338 I had Fred build me in 300 Win mag, on the same stock with a 24" Hart sporter Barrel on it.

Those guns had the old hard rubber ventilated recoil pads, but the stocks did have some give in the but section to help a bit. But in 50 years things have evolved so much that today these High Tec stocks that cost 4 and 5 times what they did back then, are unbelievable. Most can't realize, what gunsmithing and components have evolved into. Ya even the powders we have today offer more with less snappy response to older powders they have replaced.

Even that will make a difference in how harsh a rifle will respond at the same velocities. But my main thing is, I had those, I was there, I did that. BUT, I ain't built a 338-06 AI or straight 338-06. Plus many put hunting rifles into an arsenal you only hunt with,,, I shoot every gun I own often, or they don't stick around long. Most have more than one barrel. This one will be no exception!

I will assure you it will get a smaller caliber at some point when it starts getting to routine. I will assure you in a hunting gun, it will not be a 6mm. I reserve them for Varmint and punching paper or steel. I found over 30 years how superior a 1/4 bore is to a 6mm when it comes to hunting! There is no comparison to the 257 when game the size of Northern Whitetail even antelope are concerned.

Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of 6mmers, even 22's, but antelope or bigger will be hunted with the 257 if I'm hunting them over any 6mm. I have had a 7x57 AI on a commercial Mauser X years ago. I agree it's a fine rifle, but half the fun of building rifles is to have something most don't. The next thing is it has to be SEXY! To me the 338-06 is more sexxy than the win mag, and even the 7x57 AI, but it is pretty sexy to, and they both just work. But like I've said, never had a 338 in a little 06 case.

But rest assured, I don't dump 3K on a rifle unless I plan on shooting it, and trust me, I don't mean just 4 or 5 times a year. 400 or 500 shots a year is more like it. But I know what recoil is, and this is not a big boomer in my book! I leave them for the young studs today!!

 

[Treeslug]

Something about building new rifles and handguns, I just can't stop myself, and I always have a reason, this time, I don't have one for big game this light, but I think I have a need.

I've gotta be outa my mind, but I am thinking of doing this in 338-06 AI caliber, only a complete custom build. I have a new Stainless Steel 700 Remington Long Action, standard bolt face ordered. I also ordered all the hardware for a BDL bottom metal and mag box follower and spring. All this to go in the, under 20 oz. Peak 44 Blacktooth stock. to top it off, I will building it on a Douglas #3 remington Sporter blank.

I say outa my mind as I'm 70 years old, and with severe arthritis and 3 vertebrae pinned in my neck to go with the 8 fused vertebrae in my lower back, I aint sure how much fun this will be to shoot in 338-06 AI. I aint even sure I will even be able to use it? But I've had about everything else in the past, and since I want this to be light, I figured the 338-06 AI was about all I should try in a 7ish pound hunting gun?

I know in the past, I decided some 15 or 20 years ago, I don't really care for the magnums, they just don't offer anything to kill big game that I can't do with non magnums, as long as I have a medium to heavy bullet that shoots accurately out to 500 hundred or so yards. Besides, I never thought those magnums, belted or unbelted, had as much class, or as sexy as the Ackley cartridges on 7x57 or 06 brass were.

But if this caliber is to hard on the old bones, I can always screw a 6mm rem, 257 Roberts, on the 7,8x57 case or even a 25-06 or 280, all in the Ackley Improved versions. The Long Action will work with either, and accommodate longer seating for those Xx57 rounds. But my thoughts are, the 338 with 180 grain I can use for even whitetail, and still take the recoil. Hunting them is still doable in my condition, not so sure I could still hit Public land for Elk, or even draw a tag.

Then something keeps telling me, even the 25 calibers will do that,, and maybe in my physical condition, at my age, maybe a better choice. I always loved my custom 300 WM qand 338 WN I had years ago built by Fred Sinclair back in my 20's. Knowing those old guns were built much like I am planning today. We just didn't have 20 oz stable hunting stocks, the General Purpose classic McMillan hunting stock was what those used. Probably 20 to 30 oz. heavier to start with. But they were built with the same light hunting contoured barrels I'm choosing today. I've just always enjoyed building new rifles, and this one, will be the lightest I've ever built over 30 cal. will it be a smooth shooter, ar a snappy kicker?

But I have 90 days or so to change my mind, and only need 3 to 4 weeks to get a barrel from Shilen Douglass or Hart. So I'm waiting a couple months to order it. My question to you all is, is this new stock package going to make the 338-06 AI fun to use, or will it be a safe queen, only taken out to shoot when I want to hunt with it. 2 years ago my Linebaugh's got sold, because they were just to hard on my wrists after 20 or rounds, and I hate safe queens!

Way back when I was about 69, I asked my wife if she would buy me a new 338-378 Weatherby. She did!

On Nov. 7, 2024 (a little past opening day for deer season) I had to have an emergency quadruple-by-pass. I won't be shooting anything with that hog-murderer this year, but at 73 I'll be back to the hunt.

With your spinal problems I don't think you should build a 338-378, but the 338-06 Ackley Improved should be fun and no safe-queen. Exercise that neck while you wait on the rifle, load up some milder loads and go have fun.

Merry Christmas everyone!

 

[quandary]

The Whelen your really limited to 200 grains for suitable hunting bullets that will handle it's full potential and not come apart.

https://hammerbullets.com/product/358-cal-255gr-hammer-hht/

 

[Bobcatter]

https://hammerbullets.com/product/358-cal-255gr-hammer-hht/

That would be a very bad choice for a 35 Whelen or Whelen Ackley beyond the muzzle. This is why I referred to the 358 needing 200 grains or heavier. Hunting bullets have two needs, one is they have to open up, and two is they have to retain their mass weight. The only 180's I am aware of for the 35 cal is made to open up at handgun velocities below 2200 fps. Anything faster and they turn into varmint bullets. But even most 250 grain bullets are designed to work in the velocities the Whelen can deliver. especially my prefered premiums spoken of below.

The 255 hammer for me would not go into one of my cartridges, let alone be relied upon for taking even Mule Deer. My guess is they probably would not open up at Whelen Velocities at 50 yards reliably. If they are worth the rit the company making them speaks, they are built to operate reliably at the velocities wildcats built on the 378 Weatherby brass, a tad more than a 35 Whelen AI would muster at point blank range. If they did open up at all, they would be totally unreliable in the much faster cartridges they were designed to be used in.

I have been retired since 1991 from the Iron Workers. In the past 33 years shooting, fishing and hunting has been my main occupation 7 days a week and 52 weeks a year. I've spent countless hours and dollars testing in real world situations how different weapons become efficient in every aspect we use them in. I don't care if it's a revolver shooting hard cast in big bore hand canons to long range single shots in big bore and a few in high velocity medium bore. They taught me a lot about the difference in the needs for a bullet to work reliably.

The first thing I learned, is I would only use a copper or alloy bullet if the law required it. I also know that the best bullets for accuracy which is my first priority when I spend big bucks on custom builds, has proven a copper jacketed lead core bullet is as good as it gets. Not just for accuracy, but for reliability as well. I've seen to many drink the solid copper kool aid and wonder why they work so well sometimes, but fail to do anything but poke holes others. Poly tipped, HP or solids. My thoughts are, the only time I would ever rely on a solid copper, or monolithic bullet is in a heavy for caliber projectile, over .40 cal firearm where diameter was established before leaving the barrel. Then I know they will make a large wound chanel, and penetrate.

I have over the years become totally confident in just a handful of bullets, In partition the Nosler and Swift A-Frame, they are made to open at less than magnum velocities, and still even if driven faster they open quicker but maintain the same terminal diameter and carry enough weight after losing the frontal lead to carry on and finish the job.

The next three I have found to work almost to the same performance stanf=dards are the Nosler high tech jackets and aloy cores found on the Accubond, as well as the swift Scirocco's. They are made to accommodate the less the magnum calibers in most of their lineup till you get to the heaviest per caliber, which most non magnum shooters stay away from in any caliber. But they will not come apart or loose their core, even on the magnums once opened up.

But all for of those bullets in any caliber would rare not to open to double caliber at most hunting yardage, but retain their weight even in the hotter magnums. But for sure open in moderate velocities as low as 2200, fps. Maybe I drank to much of their kool Aid, but this what I have witnessed over other on and off performing bullets.

The other bullet I have faith in but only at closer yardages is the Speer Grand Slam. It is very tough, but does not like anemic velocities you can get away with from the others mentioned. It is also not made for longer range, the bullet profile shows that, and accuracy has never been as good as the Swift or Noslers would give me. Sorry, Like profiles and looks, I'm old school and this where my trust and recommendation's would come from.

 

[Bobcatter]

Way back when I was about 69, I asked my wife if she would buy me a new 338-378 Weatherby. She did!

On Nov. 7, 2024 (a little past opening day for deer season) I had to have an emergency quadruple-by-pass. I won't be shooting anything with that hog-murderer this year, but at 73 I'll be back to the hunt.

With your spinal problems I don't think you should build a 338-378, but the 338-06 Ackley Improved should be fun and no safe-queen. Exercise that neck while you wait on the rifle, load up some milder loads and go have fun.

Merry Christmas everyone!

My prayers that that day comes soon for you Treeslug! I am blessed as most of my injuries just require me to take the discomfort. Even that is not something I have to deal with every day. There days I definitely can't play, but on most days, if I've been moderate with my endeavors I can take part in anything moderately. When I over do it, and that does happen from time to time. It puts me down for a short period of time. It is like any other limitations, you learn to live with them, and do what is needed to continue doing things in a different manner.

I agree on the big big stuff, but just like we once thought about 600 and 1000 yard target shooting, we don't need 30o mags or 30-358's to take top honors. today it's hard to beat them little 6BR and medium cased 6mms, easy peasy to shoot without a 60 pound contraption, and even then, thos 15 to 17 pound mice cartridges get their attention! That 338-06 AI or not, I'm sure is one cartridge that will do it's job on game when assembled with the the proper ingredients, without kicking my ars!!

Get better young man, it aint your time to leave the field yet, you still got plenty left in you with that attitude!!!

 

[Brewer]

I'd like to throw in a little personal experience here. My first high-power at 20 years old was a 300 win mag Winchester 70 featherweight. Surprisingly, I had some accuracy problems and after 20 rounds I just didn't want to shoot any more. I could not figure out for the longest time why I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn so I started doing some research. 1st came a trigger that I preferred at a out 14 ounces and then when that didn't completely cure the accuracy issue, I put a radial brake on it. That made the difference between night and day. Since then I bought a lathe and now every rifle I buy I put a break on.

I hear you when you talk about wearing ear protection... it is an absolute must with all my rifles, except the ones that have suppressors on them. An 8 inch by 1.625 inch suppressor will do about as much good as a break on the 300 win mag. You might consider threading the barrel just incase your joints don't take to kindly to the recoil. Just my $.02.

 

[Brewer]

And then there is the 6.5mm-06 AI. I built one of those about 10 years ago. It weighs 15 pounds and the recoil is non exisistant. 140 grain bullets run 2800 which i believe is very adequate for elk at long range though I have never. Been elk hunting. I noticed that caliber was not on your list. Maybe you already have a couple. Either way, I'm sure you will enjoy whatever you build!

 

[Mike Matteson]

That would be a very bad choice for a 35 Whelen or Whelen Ackley beyond the muzzle. This is why I referred to the 358 needing 200 grains or heavier. Hunting bullets have two needs, one is they have to open up, and two is they have to retain their mass weight. The only 180's I am aware of for the 35 cal is made to open up at handgun velocities below 2200 fps. Anything faster and they turn into varmint bullets. But even most 250 grain bullets are designed to work in the velocities the Whelen can deliver. especially my prefered premiums spoken of below.

The 255 hammer for me would not go into one of my cartridges, let alone be relied upon for taking even Mule Deer. My guess is they probably would not open up at Whelen Velocities at 50 yards reliably. If they are worth the rit the company making them speaks, they are built to operate reliably at the velocities wildcats built on the 378 Weatherby brass, a tad more than a 35 Whelen AI would muster at point blank range. If they did open up at all, they would be totally unreliable in the much faster cartridges they were designed to be used in.

I have been retired since 1991 from the Iron Workers. In the past 33 years shooting, fishing and hunting has been my main occupation 7 days a week and 52 weeks a year. I've spent countless hours and dollars testing in real world situations how different weapons become efficient in every aspect we use them in. I don't care if it's a revolver shooting hard cast in big bore hand canons to long range single shots in big bore and a few in high velocity medium bore. They taught me a lot about the difference in the needs for a bullet to work reliably.

The first thing I learned, is I would only use a copper or alloy bullet if the law required it. I also know that the best bullets for accuracy which is my first priority when I spend big bucks on custom builds, has proven a copper jacketed lead core bullet is as good as it gets. Not just for accuracy, but for reliability as well. I've seen to many drink the solid copper kool aid and wonder why they work so well sometimes, but fail to do anything but poke holes others. Poly tipped, HP or solids. My thoughts are, the only time I would ever rely on a solid copper, or monolithic bullet is in a heavy for caliber projectile, over .40 cal firearm where diameter was established before leaving the barrel. Then I know they will make a large wound chanel, and penetrate.

I have over the years become totally confident in just a handful of bullets, In partition the Nosler and Swift A-Frame, they are made to open at less than magnum velocities, and still even if driven faster they open quicker but maintain the same terminal diameter and carry enough weight after losing the frontal lead to carry on and finish the job.

The next three I have found to work almost to the same performance stanf=dards are the Nosler high tech jackets and aloy cores found on the Accubond, as well as the swift Scirocco's. They are made to accommodate the less the magnum calibers in most of their lineup till you get to the heaviest per caliber, which most non magnum shooters stay away from in any caliber. But they will not come apart or loose their core, even on the magnums once opened up.

But all for of those bullets in any caliber would rare not to open to double caliber at most hunting yardage, but retain their weight even in the hotter magnums. But for sure open in moderate velocities as low as 2200, fps. Maybe I drank to much of their kool Aid, but this what I have witnessed over other on and off performing bullets.

The other bullet I have faith in but only at closer yardages is the Speer Grand Slam. It is very tough, but does not like anemic velocities you can get away with from the others mentioned. It is also not made for longer range, the bullet profile shows that, and accuracy has never been as good as the Swift or Noslers would give me. Sorry, Like profiles and looks, I'm old school and this where my trust and recommendation's would come from.

The problem I have with Partition is blood shooting entire side of an animal, because of the front portion coming unscrewed. I used them once and never again. I do use Nosler BT & AB and they have done a great job for me over a great many years. They have been very accurate in my rifles. They don't seem to create much in blood shot meat either. I do push them at velocity of 3200+ fps in the rifles I uses. That at close range out 500yds. My brother love Partition bullets. So each there own. With all copper bullets you need a faster twist rate, than what had been used in older rifles. My 220 Swift I wouldn't use anything but 55grs bullets in it. It's dead on and a bug hole rifle. I have a 6mm/280AI, and building a 25/280AI presently. Just about got to get my reloading shack finish to laod for them. Getting close, but not finish yet. I had to come with a plan and alot of it is done by looking at how I am going to lay it out on the bench and store the reloading equipment. Adjusting my thinking how I plan to use the area. Most of my equipment is going to be setup InLine plates, so I don't need as much of a bench space. Storage of the equipment become the big item to deal with. Take a lot of room for those items. Several presses Dillion, P. Warren, Rock Chucker Area 19, and other setups. Scales, powder measures (4) presently and will probable will add to those. Not say the lease of components. Storing those item has become the headace inside the building. Planning, Planning. Where I had other building or a garage left me with lots of room and took up a lot of room at the same time.
Hell getting old, and taking all night to do what you could do all night.

 

[quandary]

That would be a very bad choice for a 35 Whelen or Whelen Ackley beyond the muzzle. This is why I referred to the 358 needing 200 grains or heavier. Hunting bullets have two needs, one is they have to open up, and two is they have to retain their mass weight. The only 180's I am aware of for the 35 cal is made to open up at handgun velocities below 2200 fps. Anything faster and they turn into varmint bullets. But even most 250 grain bullets are designed to work in the velocities the Whelen can deliver. especially my prefered premiums spoken of below.

Not to hijack your thread but as a matter of observation. This fall alone I have killed a Caribou, Grizzly and bull Elk with a 200 gr Cutting Edge Bullets Lazer, copper mono-metal, all one shot at distances varying from 70 yards to 210 yards. CEB does not make 35 cal bullets, hence the Hammer which reportedly work just as well. Copper does require more velocity, limiting your range to where the bullet drops stays above 1,800 fps. Which for the 35 Whelen using Varget will be about 500 yards. Going smaller say the 196HHT will get you another 200 yards or so. But of course it all comes down to the load that works and the game you are hunting for bullet choice. I am having my barrel built with a 1:12 twist so that I have many choices.

 

[Mike Matteson]

Not to hijack your thread but as a matter of observation. This fall alone I have killed a Caribou, Grizzly and bull Elk with a 200 gr Cutting Edge Bullets Lazer, copper mono-metal, all one shot at distances varying from 70 yards to 210 yards. CEB does not make 35 cal bullets, hence the Hammer which reportedly work just as well. Copper does require more velocity, limiting your range to where the bullet drops stays above 1,800 fps. Which for the 35 Whelen using Varget will be about 500 yards. Going smaller say the 196HHT will get you another 200 yards or so. But of course it all comes down to the load that works and the game you are hunting for bullet choice. I am having my barrel built with a 1:12 twist so that I have many choices.

It's it kind of a slow twist for all copper bullets. Longer bullet take a faster twist rate to get to shoot straight is my understanding. Correct me if I am wrong. I have seen 35 Whelens, but never used them. I use a 338WM with 200gr Nosler AB @ 3230fps. In africa and other places. Never had to make a second shot into an animal.

 

[quandary]

The minimum required twist for the 255 Hammer is 1:12.5

 

[Treeslug]

My prayers that that day comes soon for you Treeslug! I am blessed as most of my injuries just require me to take the discomfort. Even that is not something I have to deal with every day. There days I definitely can't play, but on most days, if I've been moderate with my endeavors I can take part in anything moderately. When I over do it, and that does happen from time to time. It puts me down for a short period of time. It is like any other limitations, you learn to live with them, and do what is needed to continue doing things in a different manner.

I agree on the big big stuff, but just like we once thought about 600 and 1000 yard target shooting, we don't need 30o mags or 30-358's to take top honors. today it's hard to beat them little 6BR and medium cased 6mms, easy peasy to shoot without a 60 pound contraption, and even then, thos 15 to 17 pound mice cartridges get their attention! That 338-06 AI or not, I'm sure is one cartridge that will do it's job on game when assembled with the the proper ingredients, without kicking my ars!!

Get better young man, it aint your time to leave the field yet, you still got plenty left in you with that attitude!!!

Thanks for your prayers. Must be why I'm doing so much better this week.

I may try turkey hunting this spring with a borrowed low recoil rifle. I'm still in the game!

I have an obsession with over powered weapons that I have no practical use for. They will have to spend this year as safe queens. But next year, those 400 pound slabs of bacon best watch out!

Thanks again for your thoughts and prayers.

 

[Treeslug]

Not to hijack your thread but as a matter of observation. This fall alone I have killed a Caribou, Grizzly and bull Elk with a 200 gr Cutting Edge Bullets Lazer, copper mono-metal, all one shot at distances varying from 70 yards to 210 yards. CEB does not make 35 cal bullets, hence the Hammer which reportedly work just as well. Copper does require more velocity, limiting your range to where the bullet drops stays above 1,800 fps. Which for the 35 Whelen using Varget will be about 500 yards. Going smaller say the 196HHT will get you another 200 yards or so. But of course it all comes down to the load that works and the game you are hunting for bullet choice. I am having my barrel built with a 1:12 twist so that I have many choices.

A caribou, a grizzly bear and a bull elk in one fall season. You just have too much time, money and freezer space. Wish I could be you for a while!

Here's to many more great hunts. Send pictures!

 

[quandary]