What is the max range of my elk hunting load?

[ff6602]

We all need to remember that there has to be a starting point to long range shooting. If a 25-06 is all he has he needs to determine what long range for that caliber is, which i believe was his question. If 50 yards is long range for that caliber, so be it. If 200 yrds, fine. He'll have to learn to be a very affective stalker first, and as he gains capitol, he will look to larger calibers.
Very few of are born with the money or skill to shoot huge calibers at 1000 yrds.
It takes time, money and practice. We need to incourage rather than discourage.gun)

 

[handirifle]

Are you talking cut out weight or field dressed? I've seen Mulies that FD much more than 250. Northern White Tails can reach 455lbs or more live wt.

I have not harvested an elk, yet, but have been close enough to tell you the young New Mexico bull (spike) we could not shoot, would easily dwarf the whitetail I did take in Ohio with my bow. My whitetail field dressed over 250.

I have seen Yellowstone elk, and can tell you only the smallest ones would have a weight even close to my whitetail. All the rest were MUCH LARGER.

This quote is from the National Park Service website of Yellowstone.
Yellowstone Elk - Yellowstone National Park
"Adult males, or bulls, range upwards of 700 pounds while females, or cows, average 500-525 pounds."

So sorry, the idea of 275lb elk just does not ring true.

As for using a 25 cal on elk, purely going but what I have always seen quoted as the recommended min for elk, of 1500ft lbs, it looks like a WELL PLACED bullet at 450yds or under, is max.

I will be using my 30-06 with Barnes 168gr TTSX, when my time comes. Even then I will self limit to 400yds.

 

[WildRose]

I have not harvested an elk, yet, but have been close enough to tell you the young New Mexico bull (spike) we could not shoot, would easily dwarf the whitetail I did take in Ohio with my bow. My whitetail field dressed over 250.

I have seen Yellowstone elk, and can tell you only the smallest ones would have a weight even close to my whitetail. All the rest were MUCH LARGER.

This quote is from the National Park Service website of Yellowstone.
Yellowstone Elk - Yellowstone National Park
"Adult males, or bulls, range upwards of 700 pounds while females, or cows, average 500-525 pounds."

So sorry, the idea of 275lb elk just does not ring true.

As for using a 25 cal on elk, purely going but what I have always seen quoted as the recommended min for elk, of 1500ft lbs, it looks like a WELL PLACED bullet at 450yds or under, is max.

I will be using my 30-06 with Barnes 168gr TTSX, when my time comes. Even then I will self limit to 400yds.

Well I've related the story before but I'll give you a very abridged version.

Back around 74 my dad got invited on an elk hunt. He spent a year getting ready including buying a new custom 7mm Mag, new scope, burning up many boxes of ammo practicing and generally working his *** off to make sure when the time came he'd be ready to bring down an Elk.

After a week horse packign and no elk, he found one morning his brand new scope had leaked and fogged up and thus he was screwed.

They came back off the mountain and while driving out he gets a 500yds shot at a huge 5x5.

Fortunately he'd packed his old 06 topped off with a 40's or 50's era K-6 Weaver and dropped the bull dead in his tracks with a 180gr silvertip Remington factory load HA! gun)

Hide on, legs cut off at the knees, guts out, they said it field dressed right at 1,000lbs.

We ate on it for about a year and a half and that was a family of 5.

I don't buy the 250lbs Elk either unless they were starving to death.

 

[handirifle]

Well I've related the story before but I'll give you a very abridged version.

Back around 74 my dad got invited on an elk hunt. He spent a year getting ready including buying a new custom 7mm Mag, new scope, burning up many boxes of ammo practicing and generally working his *** off to make sure when the time came he'd be ready to bring down an Elk.

After a week horse packign and no elk, he found one morning his brand new scope had leaked and fogged up and thus he was screwed.

They came back off the mountain and while driving out he gets a 500yds shot at a huge 5x5.

Fortunately he'd packed his old 06 topped off with a 40's or 50's era K-6 Weaver and dropped the bull dead in his tracks with a 180gr silvertip Remington factory load HA! gun)

Hide on, legs cut off at the knees, guts out, they said it field dressed right at 1,000lbs.

We ate on it for about a year and a half and that was a family of 5.

I don't buy the 250lbs Elk either unless they were starving to death.

I wasn't doutin the '06 past 400, just the dude behind the trigger. I am not an extreme long range hunter, but enjoy reading about those that are and do.

My limit for the caliber/bullet combo, is about 500 yds, factoring in energy and sufficient velocity to insure bullet expansion, according to Barnes. The desired speed is 2100fps and energy is 1500ft lbs, and the energy is good to 550 almost 575.

 

[WildRose]

I wasn't doutin the '06 past 400, just the dude behind the trigger. I am not an extreme long range hunter, but enjoy reading about those that are and do.

My limit for the caliber/bullet combo, is about 500 yds, factoring in energy and sufficient velocity to insure bullet expansion, according to Barnes. The desired speed is 2100fps and energy is 1500ft lbs, and the energy is good to 550 almost 575.

Lots of better choices available today than the Barnes which will increase both your accuracy and range.

Both the Swift Scirocco and Nosler Accubonds will beat anything that Barnes is producing for both in flight and terminal ballistics.

At longer ranges the VLD's like the Berger's will open up at speeds far below even them.

I got over being a "max energy freak" long ago. As long as you can accurately and repeatedly put it where it belongs you can get away with far less energy on target. It's those "marginal hits" where the extra horse power becomes essential.

 

[Jordan Smith]

Lots of better choices available today than the Barnes which will increase both your accuracy and range.

Both the Swift Scirocco and Nosler Accubonds will beat anything that Barnes is producing for both in flight and terminal ballistics.

At longer ranges the VLD's like the Berger's will open up at speeds far below even them.

I got over being a "max energy freak" long ago. As long as you can accurately and repeatedly put it where it belongs you can get away with far less energy on target. It's those "marginal hits" where the extra horse power becomes essential.

I see a lot of black and white in this post, where there should really be a bunch of grey. The SS and AB are better than Barnes at what impact velocity? What shot angle? Which Barnes bullet?

The Barnes LRX has BC figures that are pretty comparable to like AB and SS bullets, and they are designed to expand properly down to 1600fps. The VLD is rated down to 1800fps. I'm not saying that the LRX is the best LR bullet out there, but we need to be careful when we start speaking in absolutes. I personally run a TTSX for any close range jump shots I might encounter, and then if a long shot presents itself, I will have time to unload the TTSX and load the magazine with A-Max, HPBT, VLD, etc.

I mostly agree with you about the energy, in that it doesn't make much difference how much energy your bullet had at the muzzle. When it impacts, the bullet needs enough integrity to get through any hard obstacles in the way of the vitals, and it needs enough velocity to expand. More energy is not going to make a good hit out of a bad one, and you're going to have a long day if you miss the vitals/CNS, whether the bullet's got a lot of ft-lbs, or not.

 

[WildRose]

I see a lot of black and white in this post, where there should really be a bunch of grey. The SS and AB are better than Barnes at what impact velocity? What shot angle? Which Barnes bullet?

The Barnes LRX has BC figures that are pretty comparable to like AB and SS bullets, and they are designed to expand properly down to 1600fps. The VLD is rated down to 1800fps. I'm not saying that the LRX is the best LR bullet out there, but we need to be careful when we start speaking in absolutes. I personally run a TTSX for any close range jump shots I might encounter, and then if a long shot presents itself, I will have time to unload the TTSX and load the magazine with A-Max, HPBT, VLD, etc.

I mostly agree with you about the energy, in that it doesn't make much difference how much energy your bullet had at the muzzle. When it impacts, the bullet needs enough integrity to get through any hard obstacles in the way of the vitals, and it needs enough velocity to expand. More energy is not going to make a good hit out of a bad one, and you're going to have a long day if you miss the vitals/CNS, whether the bullet's got a lot of ft-lbs, or not.

I've put literally many thousands of rounds down range loaded with Barnes bullets. I have pretty consistently found their advertised BC's to be highly exaggerated, and I've never seen any of them that would shoot better than the Interbond, Accubond, or Swifts which I mentioned.

I even have people in my own family that will swear the Barnes are the best bullets ever made, but then none of them can hit a barn with much of anything at ove 200yds.

Barnes has yet to come up with a bullet that I'd trust at long range (500yds +)on game.

Their premier "go to" bullet for tough to kill game, the partition is one of the poorest performers I've ever seen for accuracy and it certainly won't open much at all at speeds under 2000fps.

I just think there are better choices, much better in fact available today.

 

[Jordan Smith]

I've put literally many thousands of rounds down range loaded with Barnes bullets. I have pretty consistently found their advertised BC's to be highly exaggerated, and I've never seen any of them that would shoot better than the Interbond, Accubond, or Swifts which I mentioned.

I even have people in my own family that will swear the Barnes are the best bullets ever made, but then none of them can hit a barn with much of anything at ove 200yds.

Barnes has yet to come up with a bullet that I'd trust at long range (500yds +)on game.

Their premier "go to" bullet for tough to kill game, the partition is one of the poorest performers I've ever seen for accuracy and it certainly won't open much at all at speeds under 2000fps.

I just think there are better choices, much better in fact available today.

I've also put thousands of Barnes bullets down range, including the X/TSX/TTSX, and I've seen about 80-90 head of big game fall to these bullets. Our experiences run very differently. They are often the most accurate bullet I put through my barrels, even compared to some of the more popular target bullets. The BC values that Barnes advertised about 5-10 years ago were inflated, but ever since then I've found them to be bang on. And they should be pretty close- Barnes tests them in a 300 yard tunnel. Most of the animals that I've seen shot with the X/TSX/TTSX bullets have gone straight down (we usually shoot for bone). Not many have moved after the shot, and those that did usually ran because of a poor hit to the rear portion of only one lung, or something similar. What time period does most of your Barnes bullets experience cover? The problems you had with BC values and accuracy are the kinds of things that people used to say about the X bullet up until about the mid-to-late '90s. Every since the TSX bullet was introduced around 2003, accuracy has been stellar, BC values have been quite true to life, and terminal performance has been impressive.

The Partition is a Nosler bullet, BTW, and I've also found it to be lacking in accuracy in my rifles.

 

[WildRose]

I've also put thousands of Barnes bullets down range, including the X/TSX/TTSX, and I've seen about 80-90 head of big game fall to these bullets. Our experiences run very differently. They are often the most accurate bullet I put through my barrels, even compared to some of the more popular target bullets. The BC values that Barnes advertised about 5-10 years ago were inflated, but ever since then I've found them to be bang on. And they should be pretty close- Barnes tests them in a 300 yard tunnel. Most of the animals that I've seen shot with the X/TSX/TTSX bullets have gone straight down (we usually shoot for bone). Not many have moved after the shot, and those that did usually ran because of a poor hit to the rear portion of only one lung, or something similar. What time period does most of your Barnes bullets experience cover? The problems you had with BC values and accuracy are the kinds of things that people used to say about the X bullet up until about the mid-to-late '90s. Every since the TSX bullet was introduced around 2003, accuracy has been stellar, BC values have been quite true to life, and terminal performance has been impressive.

The Partition is a Nosler bullet, BTW, and I've also found it to be lacking in accuracy in my rifles.

Yep I was thinking Barnes X and typing Partition... .

I'm glad you're happy with their products. Someone has to keep them in business.

 

[Jordan Smith]

If most of your experience with Barnes bullets is based on the X bullet, then I can understand why you've got a bad taste in your mouth! The TSX and TTSX are drastically different, and the LRX is a high-BC version of the TTSX that opens up at 1600fps. Things have changed a lot since the X bullet, my friend, just like things have changed with Nosler between the old SB and the AB.

I'm not a Barnes nut-swinger. I really like Hornady bullets, Bergers are okay by me, Barnes are great, Sierras are excellent, etc. I've got a variety of different colours on my bullet shelf They each make excellent bullets that do different things better than others. Barnes are top-shelf for driving through targets that offer heavy resistance, while holding together and doing massive damage without destroying the meat.

And I don't think Barnes is hurting for business, by any means

 

[meatyrem]

Another thing on energy and my line of thinking is similar to another guys line of thinking. One of my favorite outdoor writers. Here is a quote from an article that he has written up. He has over 25 years of hunting elk and this is his line of work.

American hunter magazine
Article: The case for " enough gun" elk cartridges
By Bryce M. Towsley

Quote: " I don't buy the [leave the bullet in the critter and expend all the energy] school of thought. I want my bullets to exit if possible, and want them exiting with lots of remaining horse power. Energy doesn't kill elk, death happens because of damaged body parts. A well designed bullet that is still traveling at high velocity on exit does a lot more tissue damage than one that stops inside the elk. That's because the wound channel remains large all the way to the exit. It also will usually result in a larger exit hole, for better blood trail if needed. With elk it often is."


He also states that he believes " elk" cartridges start at .30 cal. I know not every one has a . 30 cal and you certainly don't need one for elk but it does give that little edge in your favor. I do totally agree with his statement about energy. And a bullet that is left inside the animal most times will be at the very low end of its "energy" deposit. A good example is ballistic gelatin. That small path the bullet creates towards the end just before it's " dumped" or deposited in has a small wound channel and a large one at the beginning and middle. Just my thoughts. Meaty

 

[Joe King]

Here's a thought!

This is what I taught my 2 older kids and will teach my 3yo when she gets old enough.

Take milk jugs out to the range on the worst nasty crappy cold windy day of the winter, how far can you hit the jug on the 1st shot every time? that's your max range. And shooting from a rest doesn't count.

You'd be surprised how many grown ups can't do it at 100yrds. You can worry about bore dia, bullet construction, this number, that number, after that because nothing else matters if you can't put that bullet where it needs to go. I came up with this idea about 15yrs ago when I got tired of helping my friends find their wounded animals. lightbulb

 

[Topgun 30-06]

First, I will readily admit that I won't shoot at any big game animal beyond 350 yards and it's not because my rifles aren't capable of much further distances. It's because I'll be 65 in a couple months and even with the best corrective lenses my nearsighted eyes are about 20/40 and just will not allow it. What I would like to ask is opinions on the post several pages back in this thread that talked about the .243 knocking the cow elk DRT at over 600 yards. I saw that video and the facts are that it was John Burns who took his rifle out and had a young girl with him who was the hunter/shooter. He admitted that she had never shot at a big game animal in her life and had never even shot the gun he had her use! What are your thoughts on what appears to be strictly a publicity stunt on his part doing something like that. I came on this site some time ago just so I could keep abreast of LR shooting, the rifles and bullets being used, etc. and not because I'm planning on doing any. I know the one big thing everyone on this site stresses is the amount of practice needed to shoot LR at any animal and I hope everyone that saw that video would feel very negative to what that video could do for the sport. In other words, many novices watching it would think how easy it is and go right out and start popping away at LR when they don't even have any business shooting at an animal at 200 yards! I know Burns is still taking a lot of heat for that video from long range hunters on various websites and to the best of my knowledge his only comment has been that people who didn't like it are jealous because a girl did the shooting! I may have missed it, but I don't remember it being discussed on this site and maybe it is too close to talking ethics. If that's the case I apologize and the Moderator can deep six this post if it is deemed inappropriate.

 

[Joe King]

First, I will readily admit that I won't shoot at any big game animal beyond 350 yards and it's not because my rifles aren't capable of much further distances. It's because I'll be 65 in a couple months and even with the best corrective lenses my nearsighted eyes are about 20/40 and just will not allow it. What I would like to ask is opinions on the post several pages back in this thread that talked about the .243 knocking the cow elk DRT at over 600 yards. I saw that video and the facts are that it was John Burns who took his rifle out and had a young girl with him who was the hunter/shooter. He admitted that she had never shot at a big game animal in her life and had never even shot the gun he had her use! What are your thoughts on what appears to be strictly a publicity stunt on his part doing something like that. I came on this site some time ago just so I could keep abreast of LR shooting, the rifles and bullets being used, etc. and not because I'm planning on doing any. I know the one big thing everyone on this site stresses is the amount of practice needed to shoot LR at any animal and I hope everyone that saw that video would feel very negative to what that video could do for the sport. In other words, many novices watching it would think how easy it is and go right out and start popping away at LR when they don't even have any business shooting at an animal at 200 yards! I know Burns is still taking a lot of heat for that video from long range hunters on various websites and to the best of my knowledge his only comment has been that people who didn't like it are jealous because a girl did the shooting! I may have missed it, but I don't remember it being discussed on this site and maybe it is too close to talking ethics. If that's the case I apologize and the Moderator can deep six this post if it is deemed inappropriate.

It was **** foolish thing to do, makes me wonder what he would have done had she muffed it. Come back the next day and the next till she killed one?