uso or nf

[Nighthawk]

DMCI, I'm glad I just read that post of yours, sometimes I think people jump to the conclusion that something is broken with it isn't working rather than trying to figure out if there might be another thing effecting it. I won't say more here because I always seem to **** someone off. I saw that one AR you posted above. Looks pretty cool. Can I have it??

heh heh heh That looks like a pretty big scope to be mounting on a .308 don't you think? Or are you just trying to be able to shoot the hairs off a flies *** at a half a mile?

Got any more stories about your USO's?

 

[Brent]

The thing I don't understand fully, is what custom items does USO offer I can't get on any other scope?

Wide variety of Reticles are offered in most any scope line. Premier does custom ones, power, and turret modifications as well.

If I want a 35 mm tube, 55 mm obj, 5-35x magnification, side focus, adjustable intensity lighted reticle with 1 MOA hash marks on the vertical and horzontal posts, internal bubble level and cosine indicator viewable through ocular, tritium click marks and MOA numbers with built in 270 degree shrouds around turrets, 2nd focal plane reticle, camo coated, two week turn around and free repair for life, buy back program if not 100% satisfied, will they build it, and stand by it as fully tested and guaranteed?

NF makes a really well made, and tested scope, take your pick of them. They will swap reticles for you, all reticles are lighted and have a wide variety to choose from, plenty of vertical and windage adjustment, especially with tapered bases, very positive clicks, very readable scales on turrets, side focus and sunshade.

Now what is my 5.5-22x56 NF R2 missing USO might offer, and for how much more will it cost than the $1200 these go for?

I had found something unexpected with my NF right after I got it, Jeff told me to send it into him to look at. LESS than 48hrs after "I" shipped it, my scope was back here in ALASKA, now with a full 99 MOA of vertical adjustment and an explanation to why it only had 89 MOA when I got it.

If anyone doesn't use or hasn't used, or even doesn't like NF, you still gotta be amazed with the customer service they obviously see as priority numero uno!!

Just my 2 cents...

 

[xring01]

Vern,

As far as I know JBW is running the show...

JBW3 has been trying to do some customer service and get some positive light on USO.

If JBW3 now runs the show, Then someone needs to state this publically and the situation would change alot.

It is funny how I have made numerous posts on the USO subject, but not one of the US Optic Flag Wavers have challenged anything that I have said. They go after Dantec.

Then state were they have made mistakes, and then COME TO LEAPING CONCLUSION that all the other failures must have been user mistakes...

TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS US OPTICS. DONT ALLOW YOUR DIE HARD CUSTOMERS TO DEFEND YOU.

For every 1000 pat on the backs for success, 1 OWE **** will be remembered. MISTAKES ARE NOT ALLOWED IN THIS BUSINESS. Either you make a quality product or you dont. Either you stand behind your product or you dont.

THERE CANNOT BE A QUESTION ABOUT WHO YOU ARE.

For Every Scope you sell, you are loosing 10 orders to the competition because of TOPIC like this.

ACKNOWLEDGE THE PROBLEM. FIX THE PROBLEM. PUBLICALLY STATE THE FAILURE AND THE CORRECTIVE ACTIONS TO ENSURE THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN.

CONSUMERS WILL EVENTUALLY FORGET. The OWE ***** go away...and the money starts rolling in.

But the more your customers try to defend you the more the OWE ***** are talked about. Your Reputation goes in the tank.

Just how important is a REPUTATION in this business. Were do you rank? What have you done to correct this.

HOW LONG DO YOU EXPECT TO BE IN BUSINESS?

[ 12-22-2003: Message edited by: xring01 ]

 

[DMCI]

Originally posted by NIGHTHAWK: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> heh heh heh That looks like a pretty big scope to be mounting on a .308 don't you think? Or are you just trying to be able to shoot the hairs off a flies *** at a half a mile? Got any more stories about your USO's?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some guys in my area are talking about Tactical Matches at 600 yards. 20 Rounds in 20 minutes. NRA targets (Big Bullseyes, etc.) Since I am basically lazy, I am thinking this combination would be perfect for that.

I think I bought my 6-30x58 SN-3 in about 1992 or so. So I have been working with John Sr. for a little over 10 years.

More stories? Are you kidding. That is half the fun of playing with those babies. Here is the rest of the story without the mounting problems:

Yesterday, I took the AR-10/SN-3 combination to the range and shot up the equivalent of one and a half boxes of ammo. I used my 168 Grain loads that use Rem 9 1/2 primer and 4985. Goal was to get it on the paper. My old collimator is in the trash. I will not mention the brand.

There had been some concern on my part about muzzle blast from the AR-10's compensator. I shot both at 50 yards and 100 yards with a number of different people next to me. I asked as many of them as I could if the muzzle blast bothered them. To a man(women), no one seemed offended. Interestingly the guy with the blast had a muzzle break on a single shot pistol, which appeared to be something like a .243. It's blast almost took your head off.

I got to the range about 3:00. They operate on a 15 and 10 minute cycle. 15 minutes of shooting and then 10 minutes of cease fire so you can "go down range to check or change your target". I started at 50 yards to get on the paper, walked the rounds into the center and then moved to the 100 yard range. Well, by the time I had got everything centered at 100, the range had grown quiet, and I had my lit reticle turned on just for fun.

Well, anyway I turned around and there was about five people standing behind me. "What kind of scope is that?"

Well, it turns out that everyone else had stopped shooting about 20 minutes before because it was too dark for them to see their targets, but I had continued to shoot with the assistance of the 44/58mm USO objective and the lit reticle. In the process of everyone putting away their stuff the range master had turned the overhead lights on in the shooting area, and that was the reason I had stopped shooting.

That episode tickled me no end on the way home. By the way, to report my group sizes would seem like bragging, so I will desist. I was pleased.

Here is one I wrote entitled: PDs at Winner, SD." My last years trip to SD.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> "Winner, South Dakota, A drinking town with a pheasant problem!"…. and does it ever. First trip down highway 183 and one of the darn things tried to push me off the road. He would have too, except the pheasant changed its mind at the last second and veered back off the road. The town has the biggest JOHN DEERE dealership that I have ever seen along with an excellent pharmacy with a built in FFL and license agency. I won't even mention the excellent food at the VFW and of course, the very friendly people there in the town. The weather was more than just wind in Winner, where in Saturday night were treated to a spectacular lightning show, with lightning crossing between clouds and hitting the ground several miles to the East. Luckily, the golf ball sized hailstones and hurricane force winds managed to miss us as well!

With a total of 54 shooters in 5 flights, we went out to the field where a steady fifteen to eighteen mph crossing wind and cooperative prairie dogs made for an interesting couple of days. The wind was so strong that in opening the vehicle door, the cover off the Styrofoam cooler was launched out the door and was half a mile away before we even saw it leave. However, using the excellent Horus ballistics program along with the Kestrel 4000 wind and weather meter provided me with a firing solution for the 100-grain Sierra varmint bullet that worked out to about 300 yards. It turned out that the solution was for 3.2 moa of Windage, so this being about .8 or so of a mil, I put the leading edge of the dot on the PD and presto, no PD. My .260 custom rifle used the F210M primer and 41.5 of H4895. The bullet had an instrumental velocity of 3270fps and a Standard deviation of 9.5.

This system worked so well that when Brian, a new hunting partner tried it, he killed three PDs with four shots and apparently became bored with the whole process. Brian was also shooting his little Savage .17HMR bolt gun and managed to do a very competent job with it. That is certainly a remarkable little caliber and rifle.

It was funny in one case a Dog got a little confused about the difference between cover and concealment. Putting only his head, eye and nose above the dirt mount at about 200 yards. Since he had no idea that I was observing this whole scenario through the 30X USO variable, he felt very safe. However, since I did know the difference, I aimed for his predicted center of mass. The guide seeing this through his binoculars, said: "You shot right through the dirt and nailed him". Frankly, I don't know who was more surprised, the PD or the guide. The PD was not available for comment.

The wind limited my rifle's effective range to a little less than three hundred yards. This compared to productive shots at nearly 700 yards with this same recipe in Montana where the winds were under 10 mph. Experience with the 139 Lapua Scenar bullet with a much higher BC demonstrates to me that the 100 grain HP is the limiting factor. Thankfully, with the Horus system, I was not reduced to guessing about the wind as would have otherwise have been the case. Another secret about shooting in the wind is the use of a Jewell trigger, which when set at about one pound for a consistent break, allowed for consistent trigger control.

I recall that the altimeter was over 3000 feet as compared to my home range at 700 and the humidity was somewhat different. This data was input to the ballistics model to develop this firing solution. Turns out that having faith in one's instruments as in flying paid dividends big time.

As usual, the chance to meet new friends and renew acquaintances with old ones was a big part of the fun. While the food didn't really benefit my waste line, it added considerably to the enjoyment and was singularly remarkable.

The return trip to Seattle included stops at Wall Drug and the Custer Monument. Both definitely worth the visit and good places to rest en-route.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ 12-22-2003: Message edited by: DMCI ]

 

[DMCI]

Originally posted by BRENT: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>The thing I don't understand fully, is what custom items does USO offer I can't get on any other scope? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brent:

It's a funny kind of thing. There are a lot of fine scopes on the market, and there are suppliers with aftermarket retrofits, reticles, mounts, you name it.

But just like many people that buy Savage 110 rifles and are perfectly happy, people buy standard scopes and mounts. No disrespect to Savage, who build a very competent rifle.

But once you have had the opportunity to work with a custom builder and get exactly what you want for a particular application, and have a chance to personally push the leading edge of the technology, there is nothing like it.

DAN TEC makes an excellent point when he criticizes my application of the SN-3 6-30x58 Varmint scope. Is that too much scope for that application? Yeah, well, it probably is. It was the first USO I bought and it was a learning experience. But I have had a lot of fun with it shooting PDs at ridiculous ranges.

It's sort of like NASA in a way. You are playing with advanced technology that sometimes has problems, and it is expensive. But I am 55 years old and have been shooting for nearly 40 years. I find this stuff to be the best I have ever handled. What other people think based on their personal experiences is up to them.

[ 12-22-2003: Message edited by: DMCI ]

 

[DANTEC]

DCMI

you write

DAN TEC's big problem with USO, however appears to be the result of some business relationship issues between a Salesman and his principal and nothing whatever to do with product quality. What a novel situation that is!

ok DCMI

the turret cap of lighting reticule ( titanium finish ) have a thread ( out of the box ) out of specs and loose that NORMAL on a 3000 USD and more scope ? specialy after 1.5 year of delivery time

delivery a scope titanium finish main tube order with titanium rings with regular black light alloy finish
that NORMAL ?

Delivery a ST10 with faulty turret or reticule straight out of the box
That Normal ?

Never delivery a SN9
THAT normal ?

I agrre without that surely a relation ship problem but sure a NOquality and customer servive problem too

and that very easy to send Noquality stuff oversea to customer after to have get the money by this way customer and what can do the customer with faulty scope out of box ???
loose time
need to pay costly UPS cost with insurance rate to send back the scope without any garanty
and whish that any politic problem appear between France and USA ....

that not really a serious way you are happy with USO that great BUT I am not happy at ALL to have loose a lot of money in a unserious company

last question : where is the ex Dr Williams does that the new JBW3 man ? or does Dr Williams have disappear ......strange to change of name isn it .

good shooting

DANTEC

 

[SCL]

Brent,
USO offers tube sizes greater than the standard 30mm or 34mm, objectives out to 80mm, the capability (although it is costly) to design your own reticle), choice of reticle in front or rear focal plane, internal or external adjustments up to the circa 300MOA adjustment range, options for external finish of the scope, etc. Choose what options you want or need and they will build it for you if its physically possible.

No one else does this - no one. Are scopes like this needed by the avarage shooter - no way whatsoever. Are they needed by some shooters, particularly the ultra long range lunatics? Absolutely.

Try purchasing a 50mm tubed NXS (or S&B or zeiss or...you get the idea) with 80mm objective - you can't. The mass production guys offer a wide selection of fixed products of what they think most shooters will need or want. Loopy, NF, et al have a diverse product line and cover most folks needs at a reasonable cost - however there are some folks who need (or just want) something that offers more MOA, greater magnification, etc. For this small crowd there is USO.

SCL

 

[Brent]

I'm just kind of thinking like John, maybe the consistancy lies in the production procedures being consistant, and this is where NF and others that produce specific models have an edge. Mass production in this thread leads one to think quality control is less than adequate or something, when it might be that it's the other way around and that USO is looking at a new designed scope at every turn with potential new problems they just doesn't recognize yet??

For the price I see that some pay for the USO's, I'd guess they could afford to mount the scope and test it thuroughly to make sure it works as it should.

I've haven't had a problem with mounting a scope yet, so what problems were you guys having exactly? Rings too short are about all I've had to deal with. On a Ruger of mine, it uses a set ring distance and this pretty well dictates what tubes I could, or couldn't use.

A 35mm tube, custom reticle, and wider range of power appeals to me a little, I'd just have to look through one of the scopes to see if it's worth the price they want tho. Right now, I know noone that has one around here, so I'll wait till then at least. Issues of poor CS and QC will have to have been resolved for some time before I'd buy tho.

Right now, NF has everything I need in the NXS model, at a standard price, which has been thuroughly tested, they have great service, so it's not like I'm suffering too bad.

 

[Blaine Fields]

John M.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> There is no doubt that Dantec is angry. But why shouldn't he be? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's hard to tell exactly what went wrong, but he reminds me of someone who bought a lemon for a car and wants to tell anyone who will listen what junk Fords or Chevys or whatever are. He is an unhappy consumer. O.K, I get that. So what? Unless he has something constructive to add, simply repeating how he got screwed, how the product is junk, how customer service is in the toilet, he is adding little to the conversation other than pages. Frankly, it's boring after a while.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> How much more can USO give me compared to a NF for $1200? Is the glass better? are the turrets better? more repeatable? is the NF not durable enough?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The answers are: probably, probably, probably, depends upon the use. The fact is that you will remain unconvinced until you compare the two side by side. Take both scopes and peer into some deep shadows. You may be surprised how much better one scope can see into dark areas over the other. Check the resolution with the US Airforce chart I mentioned lo these many pages ago. Pound a two-penny nail into a 2X4 with your NF and a USO and see which one loses zero.

You can spend all day demanding justifications for one scope over another, but until you get your hands on both and check them out, the explanations given to you won't mean a whole lot.

 

[snip1er]

USO scopes have been problem children for at least 5 years. The problems just won't go away, yet they charge 2 - 3 times more then everybody else. Run a search on our forums (Sniper's Paradise Forums) and you will find lots of people that have learned about USO the hard way. You won't serach long before you have a handfull of threads.

 

[xring01]

sniper1

trust me, I have been following the trials and tribulations for years now...

If your read my previous post then you know how I feel.

But I am beginning to think that I just wasted my time...The USO Flag Wavers just keep waving those flags and have yet to acknowlegde or debate my posts...

Either they agree with me or have no arguement..

REGARDLESS US OPTICS Looses in the end. What a PITTY.

Maybe I should start a poll. DO YOU THINK US OPTICS WILL BE IN BUSINESS IN 3 YEARS?

[ 12-22-2003: Message edited by: xring01 ]

 

[DMCI]

Horus

[ 12-22-2003: Message edited by: DMCI ]

 

[SCL]

John,
Rather than ask if USO is better - ask yourself what your needs are. If you need glass for a mid range gun like a .308, don't plan on shooting past 1K or so, and like cross hairs or a std mil-dot reticle, then USO is not for you - there are dozens of excellent choices that are cheaper and will do the job you need quite nicely.

If you are shooting a .50 BMG, .408 wildcat, long range hot rod .338 wildcat, etc. at 2K yards, in varying light and weather conditions, want more than 150 MOA of elevation adjustment, etc. then USO is for you, because no one else currently offers stuff like this.

Its unfair to say "Don't say its a truly custom scope" as an argument...because that's what you are paying for. Its like saying you can't make the argument that the Ferrari is faster than the Porsche 911, but tell me which one is the better sports car.

I would love for NF to open up their product line or a custom shop for larger scopes - they would definitely give USO a run for their money and IMHO competition in the marketplace is a good thing for the consumer. Right now, USO really doesn't have a serious competitor in the ultra-long range scope market. 35 or 40mm NXS with 58mm obj, 200 - 225 MOA adjustment would be sweet!

I think you guys hit the nail on the head rearding the consistency of mass production vs. crafting a custom item. USO has so many options that hey are bound to miss something or let it fall through the cracks, and their customers may order something they really didn't want or need, or didn't make sense - i.e. a 40mm tube scope with EREK - why go with a tube with 200MOA capability and then limit it with a 45MOA turret? USO builds it they way you asked for it.

Is the USO glass better? To my eyes it is, and there is a big difference between the USO ultra hi-res lenses and NF glass if you are using an add-on device to turn your day scope into a nightscope. This is a personal judgement for every user.

Are the turrets better? They work the same for me, and my USO and NXS scopes both track well - NF's biggest weakness is that they need FFP reticles rather than RFP. My zero does shift slightly while moving through the power range on my NXS. Not enough to freak out - .23 MOA at 100 yds, but its there and consistent. My FFP USO has no zero shift - but you have be used to seeing the reticle vary with the magnification. I prefer this, but its a personal choice for all users.

Xring01,
Do you really think that USO let a faulty scope go out their door on pupose because thay are a dishonorable company? I can blame human error, misunderstandings, etc, but have a hard time swallowing that they are intentionally putting faulty goods out the door, thinking that their customer's will never find out. USO has acted honorably with me and provided acceptable customer service - to me. Other folks may have their own horror stories, but for every one of those there is a customer who had a great experience and loves their scope.

The question I have for you, is have you ever owner or extensively used an USO scope? You wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> posted 12-09-2003 10:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I own 2 NXS,s, have owned many Leupolds and Tasco SS...NXS is a great scope.

My military background taught me that I would be better off with people who act with Honor. I WILL NOT BUY ANY PRODUCT FROM A COMPANY THAT HAS ACTED DISHONORABLE.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you haven't then you are slamming a product due to the experiences of others - rather than have the benefit of personally experiencing both items and making an educated judgement.

As far as your whole honor speech goes...USO dealt honorably with me. We can all read the various posts from the lawsuit stuff and read what we want into them. However, we will never truly know everything of what was said, when, to whom, etc. Relationships (both business and professional) change over time and for a number of reasons. Is it honorable for you to pass judgement over someone when you aren't privy to all of the facts and weren't involved in the dispute?

As far as the honorable company thing goes - from where do you buy your gas for your car? Do you avoid exxon because they manipulated the courts and got away with a pittance for the damage the Exxon Valdiz spill caused to Alaska? How about union carbide and their payoff to the surviving family members in Bhopal? Do you own stocks in fortune 500 companies? What about Enron, Citibank, Arthur Andersen, Tyco, etc, etc. Have you boycotted all of corporate america after the recent financial scandals? Men act dishonorably, but IMHO an entire company should not be judged for the poor behavior of a small number of its employees (unless its a one man outfit).

IMHO this thread has run its course - the topic is one that has been debated to death here and in other forums. In the end, only you can judge if USO is worth the cost. My recommendation is to try them out if you can and then make an educated judgement, rather than reply on posts from the internet. I own both USO and NF, and they both are great for their intended purpose. YMMV.

SCL

 

[snip1er]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> have you ever owner or extensively used an USO scope <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

-I have extensively tested older USO scopes and they had major flaws in the tracking system. To this day, they still have a flaw in the tracking systems.

- I have seen older USO scopes that had the same tracking errors.
- About 2 weeks ago I got to witness a USO with almost no time on it, stop tracking and go tits up.
- The same owner had another USO scope hit a "flat spot" in the elevation tracking about a week earlier.
- I got word from a USO fan that he had just mounted his new USO scope and the turret adjustments were not as prescribed and the unit did not track properly.
- About two months ago I witnessed the front end of a USO scope break off when the user tried a "drop test" from waist high.
- Three months ago I helped mount 6 new USO scope for a military unit, and within two days, two of those scopes were losing zero. Not sure if they would track right because they had the Horus reticle and the turrets were only used to correct the wandering zeros.

I have never had a USO scope in my hands that stood up and performed correctly. This has been an ongoing problem since I started testing them in 1999.

I am reading something here about a custom scope from a true custom shop "might slip through the cracks." What heck is that? If I pay $2000+ for a scope, then it better be right when it arrives at my door. For 2-3x the money, any real custom shop better make sure that the product was right. That is, if it was a REAL custom shop. I mean after all, that would be like me taking my car to a custom racing shop, then when I get the car back, its missing two out of eight pistons! Why bother?!?