Undermining Hammer?

[Petey308]

I'm seeing a lot of 'case in point' here, unfortunately. Is that my opinion and perspective? Yes.

I'd really like to see some actual evidence of when and how I've ever claimed to have an agenda against Hammer Bullets. Something beyond just opinions and feelings would be helpful. Any concerns I've ever raised have been about specific concerns and performance, but they've been exaggerated into claims that I just hate the company. It's ridiculous, quite frankly.

There's a big difference between criticizing something out of dislike and simply pointing out concerns or issues that have been observed. I've raised concerns about many other bullets as well, yet this one brand is the only one that always seems to draw the most backlash. I'm not completely sure why that is, but it's interesting how any critique of them seems to be taken as an attack rather than just an honest discussion. I do have my theories though, some of which I've posted elsewhere.

Ultimately, this division is not what I want. That's not what this is about. It's quite the opposite, actually.

It's interesting, if nothing else, to read the responses, especially after sleeping it off for several hours. I'll continue to monitor the thread to see what more opinions and perspectives are shared, but I'm going to try to stay out of it from here on, as apparently I'm seen as part of the problem.

 

[7Rum Slayer]

I find this thread very interesting, my gut tells me to ignore and move on but I will give my 2 cents. I have several years of mono bullet research as my state only allows for such hunting, that being said 99% of that research has been paper, rocks, steel plates and general target shooting. All of the copper mono bullets I have tried have proven to shoot decent groups and hold good accuracy at distance, however I moved away from most of them before I even had a chance to use on game. Between my Son and I we have kills with only 3 mono brands, Cutting edge, Badlands and Hammers. Of those 3 we have by far the most with the hammers, I believe at least 10 kills. We used almost exclusively the HH for 8 of those 10 Hammer kills. Now the last 2 bucks my Boy shot with the HH were very bizarre compared to the first few out of his 280AI. Shots were near perfect but the Bucks soaked em up with no reaction to the bullet impact. My personal conclussion ( I may be wrong on this) is that copper mono's fail to deliver the hydrostatic shock that signals the brain to shut down. Did the HH bullets fail? In both instances the Bucks were recovered. We have moved away from the HH line and are still in search of the perfect bullet but maybe, just maybe perfect doesn't exist. Animals are like Humans, some are just plain tougher that others and have an unbelievable will to live! I will add that if I never ever shoot another animal with a Hammer bullet I admire and am very appreciative of the time, money, and research done by the folks at Hammer. Like them or not they will always be our brothers in arms!! Cheers, Jason

 

[jessej]

Everyone is a looser IMO!

Yep

World wide they had a 3% failure rate, locally it was 50%, perspective makes a difference.

That's some interesting percentages there.

If you do an objective, even casual, analysis of certain posters, it's not hard to see the trail of intent and bias

Agreed

 

[Petey308]

There are many possible answers to the question. Any party engaged in that mindset or activity must answer that question themselves. We can surmise, but in an internet-only relationship, plausible deniability is an easy way out.

If you do an objective, even casual, analysis of certain posters, it's not hard to see the trail of intent and bias coming through even if we don't can't always know the "why". Human nature is such that cues are picked up on subconsciously, yes sometimes mistakenly, and reactions result without much personal awareness of what is happening and why. I can see it in my personal experience. I could post examples from threads here, but again, I'm not sure it would be redemptive. Some have put a finger on it.

Sometimes it's not overt bias involved so much as it might be a superior attitude that comes through from someone who perceives themselves as some expert that just rubs people the wrong way. Sometimes its as simple as a lack of self-awareness - always feeling the need to inject with "superior wisdom" while pointing out what they perceive as inferior human expressions and limited understanding in others while perceiving themselves as above it all. I can see that happening with myself at times. Let's own our weaknesses and lower angel tendencies. That takes real leadership - humility and integrity.

This is actually pretty good. Since I'm fresh off sleep, I'll say that I'm quite sure at times I give off an impression of thinking I'm superior. As in, that I think of myself as superior to others. I'm sure it definitely rubs certain people the wrong way. I know that because yes, I see the same thing in your responses a lot too- no offense intended, just being honest. I want to assure you and others though that I don't think I'm superior. I'm a cattle and row crop farm raised aircraft mechanic with a degree in Firearms Technology, and a currently barely existing side business making custom ammo and such lol.

I guess I'm not good at (nor do I currently know how to) stating my case in a way that keeps it professional and without emotion, but also doesn't come off as I feel feel superior to others or "holier than thou".

I genuinely do not feel I'm superior nor do I feel I'm holier than thou. I apologize wholeheartedly for coming off that way.

I wish I knew a better way to convey my points in the manner I want to without coming off like that.

Some of you may be surprised to know that even with all the back and forth over the last few years, even Fordy and I have come around and actually talk on the phone with each other now. We see a lot more things eye to eye now without clouded mindsets based on some false perception. I think some have taken a step back, so to speak, and see a different side now.

I actually would love nothing more than to see Hammer bullets be amazing and work amazingly well. That's why it's so frustrating to be met with hostility when giving any criticism or stating concerns. It's even more frustrating when there are other moral concerns (the kind Fordy has mentioned and others like crp003 has mentioned).

I will step back and try to figure out a better way to convey things I put out here in a better tone. My apologies for the past.

 

[snox801]

GS and Cutting Edge didn't build their business on this website either.

My post was in response to the simple statement about inventing a new bullet. Nothing about this website pertains to that.
If the real issue was the "false" claim. Wouldn't you also have to lump them into the hate?

 

[Northkill]

@Petey308 Appreciate the honesty. We tend to have higher expectations for others (i.e. Hammer) in how they respond to things than we do for ourselves in how we relate to them. If I put myself in their shoes (any manufacturer, dealer, distributor), how would I like to be related to with criticism of my product? Just like how I like to be related to on this forum to my postings. If I get self-defensive, is it fair for me to not give them the same slack? I dunno, it's tough to be introspective, but we all have a soft spot for ourselves and our own interests. I haven't personally dealt with the company for quite awhile as I have plenty of components to work through, and am almost always trying something new every hunting season. One fun thing is that new things keep coming out to try. If some of us that get sideways on here could get together at the range or on a hunt, no doubt we'd have some fun times connecting and enjoying more in common than not.

 

[snox801]

And they let their products sell themselves. IIRC, CEB has been a long-time and silent site sponsor. @Samantha-CEB is the rep and discretely monitors the site.

Ok so if they are active here why don't you call them out for the claims they make? Many are the same as gs and hammer.

The problem is you have an issue with them without having much of any real life experience. Every hammer thread you pop up to give your opinion and that's all it is. An opinion you created and want validation.

 

[unclecroc]

One thing about hammer is you feel as if you're really contributing to "new" things because you contribute hammer specific load data to their database and there isn't a lot out there as a whole on the terminal ballistics side (at least when I started loading hammers) so you really felt like you were on to something new and special.
So I can see why people who have had such astounding success and who have been so happy would get defensive about any criticisms and take it personally.
But ultimately it comes down to the maturity of the individual to decide when it's in good taste to defend and explain their thoughts and to do it in a respectful manner.

 

[CRP003]

Ok so if they are active here why don't you calm them out for the claims they make? Many are the same as gs and hammer.

The problem is you have an issue with them without having much of any real life experience. Every hammer thread you pop up to give your opinion and that's all it is. An opinion you created and want validation.

Be kind.

 

[FEENIX]

@CRP003, awesome avatar.

 

[Northkill]

@CRP003, awesome avatar.

I hope I'm reading this wrong by implication...

 

[bigngreen]

Not the case at all, I've been where you are sitting right now and I will assure you that your only getting one side of the story, I will commend you for fighting the good fight as I did the same but that was then and this is now

You think I have a side of the story, you are incorrect, I've been trying to figure it out from what's posted online specifically so I dont end up with one side, I have my theories but as contentious as this is if I want to ask Steve I'd stop in and talk to him face to face.
So far all the cryptic BS has been one sided. I have not see a thread titled Undermining Fordy or *** is he Smoking? So far this is looking one sided!

 

[ButterBean]

You think I have a side of the story, you are incorrect, I've been trying to figure it out from what's posted online specifically so I dont end up with one side, I have my theories but as contentious as this is if I want to ask Steve I'd stop in and talk to him face to face.
So far all the cryptic BS has been one sided. I have not see a thread titled Undermining Fordy or *** is he Smoking? So far this is looking one sided!

I rest my case, have a good day
Bean

 

[CRP003]

I rest my case, have a good day
Bean

Bean I will have to say you are growing on me. You used to drive me absolutely nuts but I am glad how you handle all this ! sho nuff
Next time I'm back to Terra I'll stop