Undermining Hammer?

[bigngreen]

The amount of positioning for the moral high ground, truth claims and social justice justification is interesting, it's generally a HUGE red flag, especially when the target audience is pre biased against the individual or company in a way that there is no way to publicly engage in the conversation without be trapped, there is litterally no way for Hammer to defend anything and come out with everyone with a clear understanding of both sides. So the trap is laid and it's been baited by personally, from one side calling out their integrity.

No one comes out of this good, a company would be insane to send Fordy anything for testing despite him being such a great resource he's clearly not able to provide data without personal input and leveraging and then turning company data into social leverage.

Petey has so shown his bias, no book or information he provides will ever be seen as unbiased or fact driven despite having some solid stuff.

The forum looses because very obvious personal issues are handled in a food fight, despite the forum owners rules and every thread anyone makes sides get a shot in thus soft dodging the rules about personal one sided attacks.
No one knows Brian and Steve's side from them directly there is always two sides, they clearly have been set up to loose no matter the facts from their perspective. It's court of public opinion, thats why this stuff ends up this way and drives division.

Everyone is a looser IMO!

 

[snox801]

I would agree, and that kind of ties into having an opinion on something you may not have any personal experience with yourself in the form of hands-on. People do that all the time with all kinds of things, not just bullets. You can form an opinion on something based on your knowledge or experience with something similar and use that as a basis for your opinion. Does it make it a fact? No, not always, and hardly ever.


I think many of they guys not big fans of the CM aren't so because of its success, but rather how it was/is marketed as better than anything else when many other cartridges are capable of similar, if not the same things. I'm not saying i believe in one way or the other, but I know that many others feel that way about it. It's really more of how it's marketed and toted than its actual success. The fact that it's successful just makes it more irritating, I suppose lol.

Anyone have an opinion as to an answer to this question?

I'll take a stab. Confirmation bias?
Many people feel the need to be correct. Even if it means lying to sway people to that belief. Happens all the time just look at our politics. Person has an idea of what they think is best, then they will do anything to convince others. One person stand out on this forum for me. Seems to go to great lengths to praise any other mono, but takes every opportunity to trash hammer. When in fact this person at one time never tried them and certainly has not put them into game. While arguing with me about how they are junk. Meanwhile I have put them into many critters. Had great luck. Had some complaints at one time or another and privately addressed them with hammer. Sometimes that actually leads to a change.
That's the best I can do to answer that question.

Why? Who knows. Why would anyone think they are safer if nobody had guns. Because people are crazy and feel the need to do "something"

 

[FEENIX]

Their claim for inventing a new bullet is not true..... solids have been around for decades.....by many mfgs. with minute differences...

IIRC, Barnes is credited with pioneering it in the mid-1980s, setting the precedent for today's monolithic bullet-making industry.

 

[snox801]

Good and fair points, for sure. Thank you for your input.

I can say from my point that is part of it. As someone who shoots over 100 big game animals a year, and many time doing while "undergunned". I can say I have been into some heated debates with certain posters who claim the bullet failed or didn't work. But no detailed claims about how or why they think it failed. Just claim it is junk with others also piling on without much to add. I can tell you very specifically why I moved from nosler to cutting edge, from them to hammer. All the small details of what I liked better. Same as how broz can tell you and many other members can explain exactly the why they use a certain bullet.
Do for me it's exactly like someone telling me that the Ford ecoboost engine in my f-150 is junk. While in fact I have had the best luck with that one out of everything I've owned.
So it comes off to me as someone insulting your choices.
Kinda the best way I can explain it.

 

[hpmag308]

And what all this amounts to is opinions and you know what is said about them. You know what they are like and everyone has one. Take a couple steps back and research yourself and see what works for you.

 

[CRP003]

Do for me it's exactly like someone telling me that the Ford ecoboost engine in my f-150 is junk. While in fact I have had the best luck with that one out of everything I've owned.

But statistically that motor has failures, more than "average". Cam phazers ETC. Just because yours is doing great doesn't mean we can ignore the results. Would I say junk? Nope. That's rude.

You running a catch can? Tuner? "Banks"!

Back to the op. Sorry

 

[bigngreen]

But statistically that motor has failures, more than "average". Cam phazers etc. Just because yours is doing great doesn't mean we can ignore the results. Would I say junk? Nope. That's rude.

You running a catch can? Tuner? "Banks"!

We have an engine that we consider complete trash, locally it's statistically poo, the lead engineer and two of his team came to tear an engine down with us and look at the failures. World wide they had a 3% failure rate, locally it was 50%, perspective makes a difference.

 

[birddog 68]

It doesn't take long from an investigators perspective to see who is offering something constructive and who is not. The strong feelings are more personal than about the bullets themselves

I didn't read past the first page but this sum's it up. Doesn't matter if it's hammer, Berger, nosler.
I have had a poor experience with one of the above, since it failed to meet my expectations I moved on. Easy peasy.
I usually don't participate on these threads because many have a agenda to either jump in and immediately put down a bullet or put it down as the users fault and not the bullet.
The same happens when discussing broadhead's for archery hunting. People take it as a personal insult if you had a bad experience with their brand.

 

[snox801]

But statistically that motor has failures, more than "average". Cam phazers etc. Just because yours is doing great doesn't mean we can ignore the results. Would I say junk? Nope. That's rude.

You running a catch can? Tuner? "Banks"!

Well considering it's the most sold truck it will
Have a high number. Can phasers is not a problem. You clearly don't know what you are talking about. Proving my point.
It has been known to eat timing chains. But so has every DI engine made. And again my sample size is large. I drive 80k a year with a lot of towing. I have had 3 go over 350k and sold running. My last one 420k before being totaled.
Now your post did not ruffle my feather as I have more miles during these than most so it would take a massive amount of data to change my mind.
Same with hammers. But this proves my point. I know I can get defensive that why I answered his questions how I did about why.

 

[ButterBean]

The amount of positioning for the moral high ground, truth claims and social justice justification is interesting, it's generally a HUGE red flag, especially when the target audience is pre biased against the individual or company in a way that there is no way to publicly engage in the conversation without be trapped, there is litterally no way for Hammer to defend anything and come out with everyone with a clear understanding of both sides. So the trap is laid and it's been baited by personally, from one side calling out their integrity.

No one comes out of this good, a company would be insane to send Fordy anything for testing despite him being such a great resource he's clearly not able to provide data without personal input and leveraging and then turning company data into social leverage.

Petey has so shown his bias, no book or information he provides will ever be seen as unbiased or fact driven despite having some solid stuff.

The forum looses because very obvious personal issues are handled in a food fight, despite the forum owners rules and every thread anyone makes sides get a shot in thus soft dodging the rules about personal one sided attacks.
No one knows Brian and Steve's side from them directly there is always two sides, they clearly have been set up to loose no matter the facts from their perspective. It's court of public opinion, thats why this stuff ends up this way and drives division.

Everyone is a looser IMO!

 

[snox801]

Now that this has become a confession session how about petey and feenix confess why the two members that seem to go out of the to make theses threads that all seem to lean in one direction. Why do they seem to have the need to do that? Both members seem to have very little if any real life experience using these on game yet seem to always have a very large opinion about the product.
Bottom line is like has been said before use what works for you and move on.

 

[bigngreen]

It seems like a few guys are intent on the perfect bullets, I think Bean said the 5%. I've never seen these guys try to make the 5% on their own, with their product, they seem to use other people to try to get the perfect bullet to their specs, I would absolutely put myself in that category at one time also, we need to realize no our monkeys not our show!! The only reason to do this kind of thread is the market place is not responding the way you think it should, let it do it's thing!!

 

[cohunt]

I for one have no way to put the number of bullets on/in game that some others have so I watch/read threads looking for actual real world data with pics if possible to see how bullets performance is doing for others. And then draw my own conclusions based on data I see.

What concerns me is the supposed recent change in performance-- some data and pics have been shown but im only seeing one side of a coin so far.

If Broz all of a sudden said he was seeing a change in performance with the 215/230 berger bullets i would want to see as much data and pics as possible-- both from hunters and the manufacturer

I look to those with lots of hunting experience as my time/money/availability of game on public land is very limited--- if i were to try to comprise the number of kills people like fordy or broz have-- id be long dead before I could draw a conclusion

 

[FireFlyFishing]

The first rule of Fight Club is talk about your favorite bullet.
The second rule of Fight Club…you fight about it.