Undermining Hammer?

[belldar]

I know, I know, get the popcorn popping.... hear me out though, if you would.

I've been following the discussions about Hammer Bullets for several years now, and something has been bugging me (I know I'm not the only one too). Why are so many people quick to assume that any criticism of the bullet(s) or company is an attempt to undermine them?

From what I've seen, most of the comments are pointing out issues like areas for improvement, overstated claims, potential flaws, or concerns with things like advertised ballistic coefficients. These seem like valid critiques, not attempts to sabotage the company. I haven't seen anyone truly trying to take Hammer Bullets down. I'll admit that I personally have been a critic of these things myself, but while I consider myself a critic, I do not consider myself trying to legitimately undermine anyone.

On the flip side, I've noticed that supporters of the company, and even the company co-owner at times, often react defensively to these criticisms. It's like they jump straight to the conclusion that anyone pointing out perceived flaws must have an agenda or just dislike Hammer Bullets altogether. In some cases, it's gone so far as to imply that people are fabricating bad experiences just to damage the company's reputation. I've even seen multiples times it said that even comparing Hammers to other copper bullets is an attack on Hammer, because they're not like any other copper bullet.

That's what confuses me. What would anyone really stand to gain by deliberately trying to undermine Hammer Bullets? The people making these critiques seem like regular guys and hunters. They aren't competitors with something to gain from Hammer failing as a business.

I'm genuinely curious, why all the hostility? Why assume the worst about someone who's offering criticism? I think open and honest feedback is how companies improve, and dismissing it as sabotage seems counterproductive.

It creates divisiveness and I do think at a point, after people are mistreated on both sides, there is some personal offenses taken and perhaps some do develop a bit of a grudge, which is unfortunate. Perhaps at that point, once tempers flair, it's just assumed people are out for each other?

I'd love to hear your thoughts. Why do you think this reaction happens? What's driving all the defensiveness, and do you think there's a better way to handle these discussions?

Looking forward to hearing your perspectives!

I agree. Why I stay away from Hammer. The way the company acts and the way the bullet acts are reasons not to use them for me.

 

[bigngreen]

If Broz all of a sudden said he was seeing a change in performance with the 215/230 berger bullets i would want to see as much data and pics as possible-- both from hunters and the manufacture

There is a difference there, that bullet design was fixed and in manufacturing, at that time the question was will this work for us, despite manufacture and everyone saying it won't. That first goat he hit with that 215 was like nothing I'd seen and I watched through the range finder beside him, then his son hit one with the 230 and it was again, wow, his not expect that and it went from there. This Hammer stuff is way more complicated for me to pars out because clearly there are prototypes being compared to production and mixture that its hard to tell what will I have in my hands today and the only clear answer I can get is to ask the guy behind the lathe!

 

[snox801]

I for one have no way to put the number of bullets on/in game that some others have so I watch/read threads looking for actual real world data with pics if possible to see how bullets performance is doing for others. And then draw my own conclusions based on data I see.

What concerns me is the supposed recent change in performance-- some data and pics have been shown but im only seeing one side of a coin so far.

If Broz all of a sudden said he was seeing a change in performance with the 215/230 berger bullets i would want to see as much data and pics as possible-- both from hunters and the manufacturer

I look to those with lots of hunting experience as my time/money/availability of game on public land is very limited--- if i were to try to comprise the number of kills people like fordy or broz have-- id be long dead before I could draw a conclusion

That is a reasonable approach. And agree with you. Sometimes something happens and those conversations need to happen. The problem is with individuals like the op and feenix.
In fact go back before the hht and you will see feenix talking the same garbage about then. Thats not a change in product that needs to be addressed that's just pure dislike for a product.

If broz came out and said that I think we all would sit up and take notice. Sure but this seems more like when those come up life long anti hammer guys flood it with the
"I told you so" type garbage.
And I can say I have not experienced any of the so called issues with the new product Yet!
It's looking like it's not across the board. So it is not the brand. If we focus on those it would do use all better. Let not forget that some of our favorite companies started by wanting something that didn't exist.

Cutting edge was that company for me for a long time. Let be great full we have choices.

 

[cajun]

It's kind of like a cult. Members get angry when you question their beliefs.

 

[snox801]

I agree. Why I stay away from Hammer. The way the company acts and the way the bullet acts are reasons not to use them for me.

So you don't use them but have a strong reaction to how the bullet performs?

Got it. The other is a valid point.

But hear me out I have brought up issues to Steve on my own. He worked out a solution and fixed the problem. Happened with the 300 blk bullet.
Never once did he act like I was the problem.

Second case in point is I tried to buy 500 big .375 bullets for him when they were new to the game. Both Steve and Brian told me they would not feel good about selling me the 409gr at the time as it was not gonna meet the goal I had that the cutting edge was doing for me.
So honestly and integrity is not the issue for them. I get they are not some people's cup of tea. But from my experience they are honest and have integrity. Turning a way a fairly large order on expensive bullets to do the customer right shows it. Thats was before I knew either gentleman's name.
Let's not forget when is the last time anyone has been able to communicate with Berger, Hornady or nosler.

 

[choprzrul]

Their claim for inventing a new bullet is not true..... solids have been around for decades.....by many mfgs. with minute differences...

The cup and core bullet had been around for decades by 1949.....yet who would argue that the Nosler Partition wasn't the invention of a new bullet?

Or how about Swift adding a polymer tip to a bonded bullet? Was that the invention of a new bullet....after all....lead core bullets with pointy tips (FMJ for example) had been around for a very long time.

 

[snox801]

Nobody complained about gs customs or cutting edge either.

 

[tim2446]

I know, I know, get the popcorn popping.... hear me out though, if you would.

I've been following the discussions about Hammer Bullets for several years now, and something has been bugging me (I know I'm not the only one too). Why are so many people quick to assume that any criticism of the bullet(s) or company is an attempt to undermine them?

From what I've seen, most of the comments are pointing out issues like areas for improvement, overstated claims, potential flaws, or concerns with things like advertised ballistic coefficients. These seem like valid critiques, not attempts to sabotage the company. I haven't seen anyone truly trying to take Hammer Bullets down. I'll admit that I personally have been a critic of these things myself, but while I consider myself a critic, I do not consider myself trying to legitimately undermine anyone.

On the flip side, I've noticed that supporters of the company, and even the company co-owner at times, often react defensively to these criticisms. It's like they jump straight to the conclusion that anyone pointing out perceived flaws must have an agenda or just dislike Hammer Bullets altogether. In some cases, it's gone so far as to imply that people are fabricating bad experiences just to damage the company's reputation. I've even seen multiples times it said that even comparing Hammers to other copper bullets is an attack on Hammer, because they're not like any other copper bullet.

That's what confuses me. What would anyone really stand to gain by deliberately trying to undermine Hammer Bullets? The people making these critiques seem like regular guys and hunters. They aren't competitors with something to gain from Hammer failing as a business.

I'm genuinely curious, why all the hostility? Why assume the worst about someone who's offering criticism? I think open and honest feedback is how companies improve, and dismissing it as sabotage seems counterproductive.

It creates divisiveness and I do think at a point, after people are mistreated on both sides, there is some personal offenses taken and perhaps some do develop a bit of a grudge, which is unfortunate. Perhaps at that point, once tempers flair, it's just assumed people are out for each other?

I'd love to hear your thoughts. Why do you think this reaction happens? What's driving all the defensiveness, and do you think there's a better way to handle these discussions?

Looking forward to hearing your perspectives!

I'll give those defenders credit, they are consistent. I thought they were all democrats, their way or no way and they get louder the more we ask why. (sorry guys)
I agree with you that company works hard trying to make them work and perform and there is no magic one does all. copper or lead.

 

[CRP003]

So honestly and integrity is not the issue for them

I think this may be different for some. The aoudad video for example made me think of integrity differently than you. But that is okay. I value your input.

 

[adam32+P]

Nobody complained about gs customs or cutting edge either.

GS and Cutting Edge didn't build their business on this website either.

 

[bigngreen]

GS and Cutting Edge didn't build their business on this website either.

Why does that make a difference? Does it give us special license to critique a product differently? Seems the only one who would maybe have an angle on that is Len?

 

[ButterBean]

It seems like a few guys are intent on the perfect bullets, I think Bean said the 5%. I've never seen these guys try to make the 5% on their own, with their product, they seem to use other people to try to get the perfect bullet to their specs, I would absolutely put myself in that category at one time also, we need to realize no our monkeys not our show!! The only reason to do this kind of thread is the market place is not responding the way you think it should, let it do its thing!!

Not the case at all, I've been where you are sitting right now and I will assure you that your only getting one side of the story, I will commend you for fighting the good fight as I did the same but that was then and this is now

 

[FEENIX]

GS and Cutting Edge didn't build their business on this website either.

And they let their products sell themselves. IIRC, CEB has been a long-time and silent site sponsor. @Samantha-CEB is the rep and discretely monitors the site.

 

[Northkill]

Petey308 said:
What would anyone really stand to gain by deliberately trying to undermine Hammer Bullets? The people making these critiques seem like regular guys and hunters. They aren't competitors with something to gain from Hammer failing as a business.
Anyone have an opinion as to an answer to this question?

There are many possible answers to the question. Any party engaged in that mindset or activity must answer that question themselves. We can surmise, but in an internet-only relationship, plausible deniability is an easy way out.

If you do an objective, even casual, analysis of certain posters, it's not hard to see the trail of intent and bias coming through even if we can't always know the "why". Human nature is such that cues are picked up on subconsciously, yes sometimes mistakenly, and reactions result without much personal awareness of what is happening and why. I can see it in my personal experience. I could post examples from threads here, but again, I'm not sure it would be redemptive. Some have put a finger on it.

Sometimes it's not overt bias involved so much as it might be a superior attitude that comes through from someone who perceives themselves as some expert that just rubs people the wrong way. Sometimes its as simple as a lack of self-awareness - always feeling the need to inject with "superior wisdom" while pointing out what they perceive as inferior human expressions and limited understanding in others while perceiving themselves as above it all. I can see that happening with myself at times. Let's own our weaknesses and lower angel tendencies. That takes real leadership - humility and integrity.