Undermining Hammer?

[snox801]

You Sir are awesome! Congrats on killing an elk with a creedmoor. Now let some that actually have tried different things voice their opinions and don't get so butt hurt

It's a family nick name that came before the movie

Im not butt hurt and do hunt with other stuff. Including noslar and cutting edge. I was just pointing out you mad a blanket statement that seemed to add nothing to the actual topic. Other than you didn't like them.
This is indeed a hunting website not a reloading website. So when you post one time a guy you know used said bullet and it didn't work. I am allowed to counterpoint that Statement. With real experience.

And as for being Awsome no I'm not that's why I have to use a creedmore. It does all the work for me.

 

[snox801]

I drive a 2009 Ram 2500, quad cab, 8' box, it is by far the best truck EVER made.

View attachment 640172

I knew a guy one time who had his run out of gas and left us stranded. I didn't like how long it took to fill up. I hated how far I had to reach forward to pass something to someone sitting in the front.
Id never own one. lol

Oh crap now I sound like Belldar.

 

[Petey308]

 

[CRP003]

I know, I know, get the popcorn popping.... hear me out though, if you would.

I've been following the discussions about Hammer Bullets for several years now, and something has been bugging me (I know I'm not the only one too). Why are so many people quick to assume that any criticism of the bullet(s) or company is an attempt to undermine them?

From what I've seen, most of the comments are pointing out issues like areas for improvement, overstated claims, potential flaws, or concerns with things like advertised ballistic coefficients. These seem like valid critiques, not attempts to sabotage the company. I haven't seen anyone truly trying to take Hammer Bullets down. I'll admit that I personally have been a critic of these things myself, but while I consider myself a critic, I do not consider myself trying to legitimately undermine anyone.

On the flip side, I've noticed that supporters of the company, and even the company co-owner at times, often react defensively to these criticisms. It's like they jump straight to the conclusion that anyone pointing out perceived flaws must have an agenda or just dislike Hammer Bullets altogether. In some cases, it's gone so far as to imply that people are fabricating bad experiences just to damage the company's reputation. I've even seen multiples times it said that even comparing Hammers to other copper bullets is an attack on Hammer, because they're not like any other copper bullet.

That's what confuses me. What would anyone really stand to gain by deliberately trying to undermine Hammer Bullets? The people making these critiques seem like regular guys and hunters. They aren't competitors with something to gain from Hammer failing as a business.

I'm genuinely curious, why all the hostility? Why assume the worst about someone who's offering criticism? I think open and honest feedback is how companies improve, and dismissing it as sabotage seems counterproductive.

It creates divisiveness and I do think at a point, after people are mistreated on both sides, there is some personal offenses taken and perhaps some do develop a bit of a grudge, which is unfortunate. Perhaps at that point, once tempers flair, it's just assumed people are out for each other?

I'd love to hear your thoughts. Why do you think this reaction happens? What's driving all the defensiveness, and do you think there's a better way to handle these discussions?

Looking forward to hearing your perspectives!

Bringing back the op since so many seem to have ADHD

 

[bfarms]

I like fordy and bean. Never met them but I like their personality lol. ( I used to hit scheid diesel extravaganza every year untill I was married, I was in beans back door and never knew it). I shoot mostly bergers and a few customs. I've never lost an animal with any of them so far. But I try to put it where it's supposed to go. If I ever do loose an animal I'm probably gonna question my shot before I question the bullet. Different strokes for different folks. I like that bullet dumping energy in that animal. I don't care what it tears up inside of it. I want it dead lol

 

[belldar]

Im not butt hurt and do hunt with other stuff. Including noslar and cutting edge. I was just pointing out you mad a blanket statement that seemed to add nothing to the actual topic. Other than you didn't like them.
This is indeed a hunting website not a reloading website. So when you post one time a guy you know used said bullet and it didn't work. I am allowed to counterpoint that Statement. With real experience.

And as for being Awsome no I'm not that's why I have to use a creedmore. It does all the work for me.

I made statements that pertain to the topic at hand. I stated things that bothered me that could use improvement. Things I don't like about hammer. Is that not the topic here?
As for the guy I know. You don't know me. You don't know the guy I'm referring to. Ya, you can take it with a grain of salt and it wasn't me that did the shooting. Any one can say anything without proof on these sites so you have to choose what to beleive. I don't believe a lot of the BS that is spewed so I can't blame you in that regard. What I do believe is what I have witnessed and had dealing with. Had I not I wouldn't chime in.
In regards to hammer I have used them, I don't like them. I will stick with what I like and that is what this whole forum is about is throwing out experience and letting others choose for themselves. You have no idea on my experience and what I actually do so I can't blame you on your responses. With that said I have helped a lot out there in getting their shooting down and have been through many different shooting experiences. Well I hope that was nice enough. I was in a fighting mood I guess. Too much fresh air today

 

[fordy]

The amount of positioning for the moral high ground, truth claims and social justice justification is interesting, it's generally a HUGE red flag, especially when the target audience is pre biased against the individual or company in a way that there is no way to publicly engage in the conversation without be trapped, there is litterally no way for Hammer to defend anything and come out with everyone with a clear understanding of both sides. So the trap is laid and it's been baited by personally, from one side calling out their integrity.

No one comes out of this good, a company would be insane to send Fordy anything for testing despite him being such a great resource he's clearly not able to provide data without personal input and leveraging and then turning company data into social leverage.

Gday BG
I apologise in advance this is going to be long

Interesting claims yes but factual & I still await Steve's response in that WTH thread let alone this one & most importantly to me is the .510 & 375 cal pills classification of DG yes DG as that is plain wrong & surely Einstein isn't needed to work that out & why


So let's go to some other facts that may clear one's mind but before I do .
my intention is the truth as some poor sole is going to get burnt on the trip of a lifetime or a harder recovery to a lost critter that now is a punched tag & less meat or none in the freezer
Yes regardless of brand I've done exactly the same on all brands & I'll not quote the numerous times I've gone to bat against the choice of a individual or a companies advice & nearly always I'll show factual terminal data on the why one should be cautious @ the least & the vast majority of this is my terminals

Now let's move to factual again
154hht in 30 cal I had spoken to Steve way prior to about the issue of the 154hht becoming widely known on HT that this pill wouldn't open to the 1700 rated min velocity threshold of the time ( now moved to 1800 ) & I did everything that I was asked even on request put this pill into water jugs @ longrange to confirm the pill would or wouldn't work
Yet how many times must I keep asking the hammerboys that this pill should be reclassified to its actual minimum working velocity not dictating of saying "you need to "it was a suggestion but yes highlighted off my data & also gel tests that another person did & off my data including water jugs @ distance as per instructions yet for some reason the reluctance to do was only one Steve can answer

Yes nothing occurred

Now move to HT & I get asked what pill shows better results for a individuals situation & the 154hht pops up & what am I meant to do go along with the swept under the carpet as "not many will see it " as their likelihood of a impact @ that range is not likely ( look on here what's the most common range of critter taken 200-400 yards yet someone will take that 600 yard shot that the pill will be in the velocity window of not working yes it will pencil & or tumble but "most won't see it"
Ha no way I'm sweeping that under the carpet for ones I classified as my mates & as history will show I spoke up when asked that & what a crap show that turned into of me having to go through all the drama of showing & shooting even more critters again & again then get into a as some will call it a ego clash of myself & Steve with him eventually going & testing & showing the 154hht didn't preform @ the original 1700 or even the now 1800 minimum advertised impact velocity & was closer to my number of working capabilities than his original 1700 or now 1800 minimum impacts
Now can't remember the threads that was all in but a search you'll see it if it's not been deleted but ask away as I know people know of this on HT where LRH I'm not sure

Now move to the 210hht in 338

That description is also the same pattern of the 154hht
my initial post on this 210 hht pill & ok that was a prototype but the description should match the ability of the pill in my mind on the website once the final form of a pill is determined
& Steve's wordings of it as last I'd seen it published on HT when I was there were "this bullet should stay above 1900 " & what's that level & yet it's advertised as having "longrange low velocity capabilities " yet no mention of the 1900 stay above ( the prototype was tested down to 1610 fps & shedding well )
So once again to the potential once in a lifetime hunt or meat in the freezer guy who has taken on board what is advertised & sets his rig up thinking it's fine to the now 1800 , what should one do speak up or be quiet yes I once again spoke up & more labeling occurs on me now let's go to the 375cal & the release date of that pill ( go search on HT the thread being "new 375cal 276gr hht "& my name was bought up as my " favourite pill " & on that testing it was given the classification of a dangerous game pill that will work also on normal / longrange that will fully deform down to 1700 impacts Steve stated later in that thread or maybe 1800 but a quick search by you will confirm anyway

Now my response was a query on if it was the same pill re weight & only the new tip length the difference in why it wouldn't fit in some magazines
Which I was satisfied with answer but as soon as I received my 375 pills OH NO !!! It was majorly different terminally yet the way it was classified /advertised was arrived from the prototype pills we tested the year before
So go to that video bean put up of mine & the proof is in the pudding & also take note of the description I talk of on the blue tip pill of shortening up the overall length of the "coke can " of it plus impact to tip wasn't to the prototypes level ( once again multiple critters taken to gain these terminal data points)
once again same pattern as above & yet when I brought it up again on HT I'm met once again with resistance once again & level of this went to another level & now a issue existed with the friction part of the new 3mm tips
which i still kept doing what I do best & gathered data & ran through theories with Brian & Brian fixed the friction part but now it still lacked the preformance base the prototype produced once again go to my video beam put up & remember every second counts in the DG world & that blue tip current pill is found wanting to get the job done even satisfactory on especially big critters compared to the prototype

So testing by Steve on this 375 pill he called it 1900 but thought it was less which I have confirmed it is less but not the 1800 mark as advertised

So now are we seeing a pattern especially the 3mm tip ones as it's more obvious
Prototypes are tested yet the finished pills have different nose profiles different champers different tip polymers different profiles of tip's different stem lengths the different hp depths different hp widths yet advertising seems to fit way more along the lines of the prototype

Now onto the hydraulic part go search Barnes bore rider 212 gr pill podcast or YouTube by vortex on what they found on the lack of hydraulic in the hp caused the Barnes to not open
& the thread I put up on HT about the lack of hydraulics in the now oil free hammers also exists in the Barnes & also let's go back to the gel test Steve done on the 199hh vrs the now known 215berger
Which he made sure he had a clear hp with a paper kip but now the pill that was shot out of the 30-06 seemed to behave a lot like the Barnes bore rider & what some people & myself have now experienced in the hammers of today are not killing efficiently as they once did

So now this leads also back into the polymer of today's pills in the hht as they are not acting gooey like the prototype tips & first batch of polymer tips that had sink in them
So yes hydraulic is a issue as it is in the Barnes as it is in the Berger I believe as it showed it was the case in the Sierra & taipan I tested
Now easy fix with the hh or like lines but the hht that's one that needs more in-depth thinking & only occurs on certain placed shots on all those pill types so a bingo raffle it is although a low % it's factual shown I know what side of the fence I won't to be on others don't care & others don't know yet

Now to the last part of bullet companies should stay away from sending me anything to test for the reasons you put up
Which is actually a bit late as one of my mates that I do testing with even though he's in the USA & im aussie he does gel I do critters

That was his concern if I put this information out as what we have done tinkering with certain brands takes those brands to the level or might even exceed the levels of those prototypes more numbers needed to confirm that
So now I had to think long & hard as to those who know me I actually think of others a lot & my part is bigger it if I forgo the gains that are possible or help the odd person avoid the bad result to total failure

I took the let's put it out & here we are

Now also I had talks with one company on this very subject of how I might be portrayed & im glad to say we had a great conversation & all we asked of ea other in the end was to be honest but no storytelling would be done on ea side & that I've learned to give a little bit of trust to a individual & allow it to grow as trust is earned & he gives me know warning signs especially once we shared what's gone on in both our lives & if he checked me out , I hope so but I didn't even go digging as I'm taking him on his word & on that next time your talking to Steve ask him if I Have gone back on my word of not putting out publicly on the one thing he dosent want out

Yes if he's true to his word you'll soon know I haven't betrayed mine

sorry for the long post

cheers

 

[jessej]

I drive a 2009 Ram 2500, quad cab, 8' box, it is by far the best truck EVER made.

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Never took you to be a Sasquatch size liar

 

[dustbag]

If you got hate in your heart. Let it out!

"Clayton let us see your face!"
Chapelle is funny guy

 

[southpa]

What's Hammer? Never heard of her?

 

[jessej]

What's Hammer? Never heard of her?

It's zena warrior princess's tougher cousin

 

[Poor_choices]

Some of this sounds like folks getting a little frustrated by the inevitable growth and change of a business. Every small business starts out with a group of early adopters who feel like they're a part of the company and in a lot of ways they are. At a certain point though, the company has to move on in order to grow. We used to call them "gun hipsters". They were part of XYZ company before anyone knew about it, and they felt special because of that. I've been there with companies and it's hard to watch "your guys" move on and start listening to new voices and opinions.

A former member here on LRH, Yorke-1, was a close friend of mine who did a ton of bullet testing. A lot of that information was shared here, and a lot more never made it onto any of the forums. We shot together at least once a week for close to 15 years, and I was there during almost all of the bullet testing he did. He did a lot of testing with Hammer Bullets early on and was in contact with the guys from Hammer on a very regular basis. I remember when he started to pick up on unusual performance in gel blocks and brought it up to the guys at Hammer. It was always well received by them as far as I can remember, but the pushback he go from some of the loyalists was surprising. It's interesting to see and hear that some of the folks who were critical of his observations then, now have very similar observations. I have to say though, I never remember hearing of the Hammer Bullets owners being defensive when an observation was presented to them. I can understand why they'd get a little irritated when people start telling them everything they're doing wrong, while their company appears to be growing and succeeding quite well. I don't think the majority of us will ever have all of the information when it comes to misrepresenting information or results though, so that's an angle best left to the parties involved.

 

[FEENIX]

Ok so if they are active here why don't you call them out for the claims they make? Many are the same as gs and hammer.

The problem is you have an issue with them without having much of any real life experience. Every hammer thread you pop up to give your opinion and that's all it is. An opinion you created and want validation.

All of my responses on this thread are known facts; you are welcome to disprove them. As for your false claims and accusations, I will not respond here and cause this thread to be locked or people to get banned unnecessarily because @Len Backus's living room rules of engagement were violated. The OP's post has generated valuable responses for his intended purpose and supported his other thread. And if you misconstrued that, it's on you.

Should you decide to address your false accusations on a separate thread, please provide evidence to justify your unwarranted claims, and I will do the same. I have a couple of friends with extensive audit trails/catalogs of these false accusations. While you are at it, since you are seeking the truth, respond to @CRP003's #107 post. I know a couple of guys who would have easily attacked and accused me in the past like you are doing now. I am glad they have since moved on, and that's a win for the LRH community. And you, too, can move on as most of us have and be part of a productive and respectful contributor to the LRH community.

 

[Len Backus]

I am glad to see everyone on the playground being nice to each other...