Trouble with first shot accuracy with T/C Prohunter 50 cal.

[Dskiper]

This all sounds like alot of improvement is needed onTC's part.Since when should a customer have to invest more money after the 800.00+ dollars you have just spent! Thats bull----! Bet Jim Shockey didn't have that problem with his! And TC's ok with a 3" group @ 50yrds.or worst!! Know wonder I had trouble with sighting in my Encore .50. i TOOK MY ENTIRE SCOPE&MOUNT OFF! tHEN REASSEMBLED. They should come up with a universal fix!!!! thanks for remedies the company won't post!!

 

[ENCORE]

This all sounds like alot of improvement is needed onTC's part.Since when should a customer have to invest more money after the 800.00+ dollars you have just spent! Thats bull----! Bet Jim Shockey didn't have that problem with his! And TC's ok with a 3" group @ 50yrds.or worst!! Know wonder I had trouble with sighting in my Encore .50. i TOOK MY ENTIRE SCOPE&MOUNT OFF! tHEN REASSEMBLED. They should come up with a universal fix!!!! thanks for remedies the company won't post!!

Yes, it is something that T/C should handle but, one has to remember that its also a production firearm and with the case of trigger pull, they may consider it a liability going any lighter. As for the case of the hinge pin, it can also be an issue with the CVA Apex, now that more of them are in the hands of shooters.

Fortunately for the shooter, customizing an Encore or Pro Hunter isn't costly and every shooter that I know of that's made these changes, all report that it feels like a completely different rifle. These changes can make a HUGE difference in the way it shoots and groups.

• Trigger Spring........................ $7.95
• Hinge Pins............................. $9.95
• Locking Bolt Spring................ $2.95
• HD Firing Pin Spring............... $2.95
• 44# Hammer Spring.............. $7.95
• ..............................................$31.05 plus shipping.

I've made these changes to all of the Encores and the Pro Hunter and the change is a remarkable difference. We just did one for the Commander of the U.S. Coast Guard, Alpena Station (NE MI, Lake Huron) and he could not be any happier! He went from 4" groups down to instant 3/4" groups.

In the case of the trigger spring, be sure to download the free instructions from Mike's web page and take note of the sear instructions. It can be difficult the first time but, its something that should be learned by all Encore platform shooters. The ability to disassemble the frame and clean it, should be completed by all shooters. Especially those that may have excessive head space and a lot of blow back, which by the way can also be fixed, by installing a shim behind the breech. Shims are also made and sold by Bellmtc.

Just a side note..... My bet is each and every rifle that Shockey receives, is already customized by the T/C Custom Shop and, as a sponsor its a free rifle.

Good luck with your rifle and good shooting....

 

[mrbb]

This all sounds like alot of improvement is needed onTC's part.Since when should a customer have to invest more money after the 800.00+ dollars you have just spent! Thats bull----! Bet Jim Shockey didn't have that problem with his! And TC's ok with a 3" group @ 50yrds.or worst!! Know wonder I had trouble with sighting in my Encore .50. i TOOK MY ENTIRE SCOPE&MOUNT OFF! tHEN REASSEMBLED. They should come up with a universal fix!!!! thanks for remedies the company won't post!!

I agree so much with this, all the extra money I had to invest in mine to make it shoot, when it should have come that way
or atleast without all the seeming issue they know about
been out shot by so many 300 dollar inlines its just sad about this TC Encore model gun
the companys flagship to boot!

 

[Mi-Nimrod]

I put my first ML together at 14yr old been shootin' MLs for my hole life I tried for three years to get an Encore to shoot!!gun)I did all that Bellm stuff and cut the QLA off too!!! I would always end up with a flier but got it narrowed down to some where on a 12" target I went back to a Knight Three years ago and haven't looked back!!! Oh just the other day I got my Knight LRH to shoot a 2.25" group at 200yds!!!

 

[1eye]

Well get use to it ,most ML shoot the same way as yours, anything with a sabot will be inconsistent ,don't let anyone tell you differant its the way it is.
They are a 100 yd gun unless to go to sabotless !

 

[Elite Muzzleloader]

Well get use to it ,most ML shoot the same way as yours, anything with a sabot will be inconsistent ,don't let anyone tell you differant its the way it is.
They are a 100 yd gun unless to go to sabotless !

NOT TRUE AT ALL!!! I shoot out to 300 yards with an inexpensive gun and been able to consistently have a 5 inch group at 300 yards and I have shot deer out to 250 yards. All done with a Hornady 250 SST blackhorn 209 and a Winchester Apex. 1 to 1 1/2 group at 100 yards.

If you put your time in and figure out what the problem is then you shouldn't have any problems. If you have to make some adjustments to your gun to get it to do what you want then it is what you have to do. A lot of people who shoot high dollar rifles have to do the same thing. Trigger work, bedding, and all the other fine tuning you have to do to a rifle you can also do to a muzzleloader to get it to shoot.

Sorry but all guns are different and all have their own taste it is what makes it fun figuring out. If it were easy then no one would be doing it.

 

[ENCORE]

Well get use to it ,most ML shoot the same way as yours, anything with a sabot will be inconsistent ,don't let anyone tell you differant its the way it is.
They are a 100 yd gun unless to go to sabotless !

I'm trying to get a grasp on your comment Are you implying that they are all inconsistent with the FIRST shot only with a saboted bullet or, are you implying that ANYTHING shot with a sabot will be inconsistent?

Shooters were shooting excellent groups with saboted bullets, back when sabots first became available and your only choice was to use pistol bullets. It may have taken a little more "playing around" with them back then but, once you dialed them in, they were deadly accurate. With today's modern inlines, all of them are capable of shooting 1" groups @100yds or less with many of the saboted bullets marketed today. About the only choice today is, shooting a bullet that punches targets well and one that performs flawlessly on game plus still targets well.

With today's modern in-lines and saboted bullets, they'll be as accurate and consistent as you put the time in. Consistently accurate out to ranges where the bullet energy falls off enough, that its no longer considered adquate for proper bullet expansion or clean kills. In most cases, more than double the 100yd range.

Some rifles can be very finiky and just a mear 5gr. difference in the charge, can make the difference between a 3" group and a 1" group at 100yds. This 5gr. difference or more, can be attributed to your volume measure and how you measure your charge. Tap, no tap, etc. This can be a common issue for some shooters trying to achieve tight groups. Thus, the reason that many are switching back to loose power and weighing charges for consistency.

However, this is the fun part, spending the time to develop the charge that shoots.

 

[1eye]

We have tested dozens of muzzleloaders shooting sabots over the last 10 years and thousands of dollars in bullets, sabots and powder , and have shot thousands of rounds and by our standards they are inconsistent . You might get 2 shots that are ok and the 3rd way out their you just never know which shot is the bad one and when you go beyond the 100 yd range it a different ball game. I have had several people bring the tack driving muzzleloaders to our range and never once have I been impressed with their accuracy ,don't get me wrong they would kill a deer at 100 yards and 200 yard in the hands of a capable shooter if you hit them in the vitals !!!!!!!!! This is why a lot of us have gone to a sabotless gun , it eliminates one big problem, the sabot but you still have another problem we have found is sometimes inconsistent ignition . So to save yourself a lot of time and money find one of these fella's that have one of these tack driving muzzleloaders and offer them $500.00 more than its worth, and have them sign a written guarantee how it shoots at 100 , 200 , and 300 yards , if possible meet with him and shoot it and if it does not shoot as claimed he gives you $100.00 for you time ! If you can get someone to do this you will easily save yourself a lot of time and money.

 

[ENCORE]

We have tested dozens of muzzleloaders shooting sabots over the last 10 years and thousands of dollars in bullets, sabots and powder , and have shot thousands of rounds and by our standards they are inconsistent . You might get 2 shots that are ok and the 3rd way out their you just never know which shot is the bad one and when you go beyond the 100 yd range it a different ball game. I have had several people bring the tack driving muzzleloaders to our range and never once have I been impressed with their accuracy ,don't get me wrong they would kill a deer at 100 yards and 200 yard in the hands of a capable shooter if you hit them in the vitals !!!!!!!!! This is why a lot of us have gone to a sabotless gun , it eliminates one big problem, the sabot but you still have another problem we have found is sometimes inconsistent ignition . So to save yourself a lot of time and money find one of these fella's that have one of these tack driving muzzleloaders and offer them $500.00 more than its worth, and have them sign a written guarantee how it shoots at 100 , 200 , and 300 yards , if possible meet with him and shoot it and if it does not shoot as claimed he gives you $100.00 for you time ! If you can get someone to do this you will easily save yourself a lot of time and money.

Respectfully, I'm curious as to what your standards may be? Not trying to be a SA what so ever but, I would like to understand what your standards are and the information concerning your testing and how it was completed.

There are some specific and well known reasons for inconsistent ignition, however I have yet to expierence inconsistent igintion in any of my Encores or my Pro Hunter. I've never had a misfire or hang fire from any of them. I haven't had either of those problems since shooting sidelocks, which I've sold or handed down.

I shoot between 2,000 and 4,000 rounds per year, 400 in October. I do not expierence the issues that you express. Other shooters that shoot here often with different manufactured rifles, do not expierence these concerns. I've also been part of helping close to 30 shooters this past year, that may have had some of those problems to start with but, all are shooting consistent now.

My Pro Hunter will shoot shot after shot, until I either run out of powder or, the will to continue shooting diminishes and never have a flyer. However, over the years I've learned to be extremely consistent with both my charges and how I load, even seating bullets to the identical force, using a force gage (Wagner Instruments, FDL - 100).

Your information has me a little puzzled, thus the reason for the questions. I'm trying to understand why you feel as you do.

 

[1eye]

Encore, do you realize from what you said about your group size .250 @ 100 yds, .750 @ 150 yds and 2inches @ 200 yards, thats better than 80% of off shelf centerfire rifles ! We have a private range up to a 1000 yard and have dozens of people shooting weeky with a stock rifles and muzzleloaders and I have never see ONE shoot like your muzzleloader . If possible let me know where you live I would like to see your rifle shoot. It appears that all the testing we have done has been in the wrong direction , maybe you can steer use on a better path to better accuracy with our guns..

Thanks and good shooting....

 

[ENCORE]

Encore, do you realize from what you said about your group size .250 @ 100 yds, .750 @ 150 yds and 2inches @ 200 yards, thats better than 80% of off shelf centerfire rifles ! We have a private range up to a 1000 yard and have dozens of people shooting weeky with a stock rifles and muzzleloaders and I have never see ONE shoot like your muzzleloader . If possible let me know where you live I would like to see your rifle shoot. It appears that all the testing we have done has been in the wrong direction , maybe you can steer use on a better path to better accuracy with our guns..

Thanks and good shooting....

Hubbard Lake, MI

You would be VERY WELCOME, to shoot it yourself if your ever up here and as many times as you feel is necessary to determine that it WILL NOT shoot fliers and it remains consistent. However, the only requirement is that you shoot my charges, my bullets and I load and seat each bullet. I would enjoy shooting with you.

For the record, it was 2"+

 

[Elite Muzzleloader]

My question is this a poor group for a muzzleloader at 100 yards??

Once I figure out a load for a muzzleloader I can get this group all day long or even better. If I do my part while loading my muzzleloader I wll not have any flyiers at all. Now if I don't settle my powder the same way every time or seat the bullet the same way I will end up with a bigger group. However once I have found the bullet my gun likes I will not get a flyier.

I guess I would like to see how you load a muzzleloader to figure out what your doing wrong. To get a flyier out of every gun you have shot doesn't make any since to me.

By the way this is

300 grain Hornady SST with black SABOT
90 grains of Blackhorn 209
Win 209 primer
CVA Optima Elite (less expensive gun)

 

[ENCORE]

My question is this a poor group for a muzzleloader at 100 yards??


Once I figure out a load for a muzzleloader I can get this group all day long or even better. If I do my part while loading my muzzleloader I wll not have any flyiers at all. Now if I don't settle my powder the same way every time or seat the bullet the same way I will end up with a bigger group. However once I have found the bullet my gun likes I will not get a flyier.

I guess I would like to see how you load a muzzleloader to figure out what your doing wrong. To get a flyier out of every gun you have shot doesn't make any since to me.

By the way this is

300 grain Hornady SST with black SABOT
90 grains of Blackhorn 209
Win 209 primer
CVA Optima Elite (less expensive gun)

Elite Muzzleloader...... It works the same for me but, I too can't understand why someone has flyiers from every rifle that they shoot, when shooting sabots. I know a lot of people and talk with many more, that shoot muzzleloaders with sabots and unless they're shooting a Powerbelt bullet, they don't report flyiers.

Here in Michigan many hunters, especially in the shotgun only zone, are switching over to muzzleloaders because of their accuracy, range and consistency. Many in the rifle zone are starting to choose the muzzleloader over the centerfire, because they have confidence in them. The most commonly found bullets that shoot the best and with the tightest groups from MI shooters, are the Barnes 250gr TMZ, Shockwave 250gr and the SST 250gr. The Barnes 290gr TMZ or the T-EZ are also shot by many.

My Pro Hunter will shoot better than I can shoot it, as I'm getting older and my eyes aren't getting any better. Its becoming easier to recognize when I'm having a "good" day vs a so, so day. But one thing that I was taught many years ago, was to be consistent with everything, which is why I convert my charges to weight, then weigh each charge. With each charge being identical, it leaves me with just two possible contributing factors, seating pressure and of course the shooter (me). There's no "standard" when it comes to volume measures and there can be considerable differences in charges from one to another. Even using the same volume measure, you can vary your charges up to almost 10grs. by weight. This can be a significent contributing factor.

I love this stuff........ Good shoot'n by the way

If I do this right??? This is how my rifle will shoot consistently at 150yds, if I do my part (a good day)...

 

[Elite Muzzleloader]

Encore,

Thanks for the compliment. When I shoot I do everything exactly the same way from day one. There are days when I get very frustrated because I can't get my gun to zero. With that being said it is only because I am stubborn and want to shoot a specific bullet and my gun doesn't want too. For instant my new to me cva optima elite didn't want to shoot my 200 grain shockwave instead it wants to shoot the 300 grain SST. I haven't had a chance to try out the Barnes 290 TMZ or any of the other Barnes bullets, ran out of powder. But I am getting to that soon.

Either way from what I have seen when you get a flyier it tends to be from the human error factor. Every time I get one I look back at what I did and remember that I didn't settle my powder the same way as before or something else. Another reason why is I switched to a different tip for my ramrod to prevent from pushing in my ballistic tip which was another reason why I had a flyier, I was pushing in the tip while pushing down the bullet.

Muzzleloaders have come a long ways from the old days and are almost as accurate as some center fire rifles. However they are still muzzleloaders and are sometimes as picky as the oppisite sex!!! This is why we enjoy having them around, must be in our nature!!!

That is an awesome group for 150 yards, great shooting!!

Elite