Jeffrey Van Zandt
Well-Known Member
a good e collar on low below 10 is had to feel around 20 a tingle dogs feel around 10 after training
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Trained Adult Lab Stopped Retrieving Pheasant
- Thread starter kurtz.nb
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300 PRC CUSTOM SAKO
Well-Known Member
300 PRC CUSTOM SAKO
Well-Known Member
A DD (Deutsch Drathaar) should be a german registry german wire hair pointer. A DK is a german short-haired pointer( Deutsch Kurzaar). A DD and a DK do have some shared genetics but they are different from just coat finish. A DK is NOT the same as a AKC GSP. The German breed clubs dogs may look the same as AKC type dogs but are totally different because the German breed dogs are NOT you have one, I have one, let's have puppies. Show breeders get zero imput, German clubs have total control and VALID EXTENSIVE TESTING for what the dogs must do, how they look, and how they act, and their health status. German clubs have breed wardens, which must certify EACH dog before it is allowed pass its genes on. As I said before AKC papers are for the bathroom and are useless and mean nothing.
First let me say this..... NOTHING and i mean absolutely nothing will train a bird dog faster than another bird dog that's already trained.
My hunting partner has a 5yo intact male yellow lab. The dog has good hunting bloodlines. He also had a very old female lab that the male grew up with. He didn't get much training in the year 1/puppy stage but would retrieve dead ducks. Year 2 comes around and the dog is doing better. Not good by any standard but better. Around the end of the 2nd season the older female dog died some time in the night in the same pen as the male dog. The male dog was alone with the female dogs dead body all night in an 8x10 pen. Ever since then his male dog won't retrieve dead birds AT ALL. We've tried force fetching. We've bought live pigeons and chickens just to see if he'd even chase them and nothing! I've never seen a "bird dog" not chase a live chicken when they go to clucking! He will fetch a tennis ball some but seems uninterested in any type of hunting or water activity. It's like the death of his kennelmate turned the Labrador switch off. He's been taken to the vet and is medically sound "I was worried about the dogs hips". After year 3 and part of year 4 of hunting very small ponds with.....
My dog who is younger but a hard charging psychopath....
And 2 of the GSP's one male and one female, both of which are DEVGRU level bird dogs.... nothing has changed. His dog is a sweet dog but is now a couch potato.
I don't have any advice other than to make retrieving fun again. I know you have trained and paid for your lab to learn how to point but that aint what they are made to do. I'd assume that the pointing and "holding" training has screwed up the dogs "get um" feature.
My hunting partner has a 5yo intact male yellow lab. The dog has good hunting bloodlines. He also had a very old female lab that the male grew up with. He didn't get much training in the year 1/puppy stage but would retrieve dead ducks. Year 2 comes around and the dog is doing better. Not good by any standard but better. Around the end of the 2nd season the older female dog died some time in the night in the same pen as the male dog. The male dog was alone with the female dogs dead body all night in an 8x10 pen. Ever since then his male dog won't retrieve dead birds AT ALL. We've tried force fetching. We've bought live pigeons and chickens just to see if he'd even chase them and nothing! I've never seen a "bird dog" not chase a live chicken when they go to clucking! He will fetch a tennis ball some but seems uninterested in any type of hunting or water activity. It's like the death of his kennelmate turned the Labrador switch off. He's been taken to the vet and is medically sound "I was worried about the dogs hips". After year 3 and part of year 4 of hunting very small ponds with.....
My dog who is younger but a hard charging psychopath....
And 2 of the GSP's one male and one female, both of which are DEVGRU level bird dogs.... nothing has changed. His dog is a sweet dog but is now a couch potato.
I don't have any advice other than to make retrieving fun again. I know you have trained and paid for your lab to learn how to point but that aint what they are made to do. I'd assume that the pointing and "holding" training has screwed up the dogs "get um" feature.
300 PRC CUSTOM SAKO
Well-Known Member
Is the red dog APLA ? Labs like any dog can have natural pointing ability and it isn't trained holding, it is instinctual pointing. I can believe the young lab that stopped retrieving after its mate died. NEVER have I had any creature (dog or human) more in tune with my emotions than my yellow lab Sonny. If I would come home bummed out about anything that dog would come over and put his head on me an just be there for me. No words needed. Best friend I'll ever have in this life.
FarmerMatt
Active Member
My first GSP didn't retrieve until her 3rd or 4th hunting season. I never made a big deal about it, she just repointed the birds and I never lost one..
birddog 68
Well-Known Member
Agree with most of this especially with the field trials ruining a great breed. My current lab is a super hyper dog always, unlike the last couple which were hyper when working but turned it off after the work was done.
Another issue with the American lab is many have a genetic disorder now called EIC and I would recommend anyone looking to buy a lab to have it checked. Please do.
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What is EID?
300 PRC CUSTOM SAKO
Well-Known Member
Yes, hunting dogs don't have to be crazy hyper. This is why the AKC is a FAILURE. And field trail/ show breeders are the ruin of the lab too. Lab popularity, puppy mills etc. have brought on so many genetic issues that I moved on to DK's. The German breed clubs probably all have this but I know that there is a "quiet" test for DK's. In the 1 year Derby test all breeding dogs must pass they must be chained and behave and be calm and settled without correction for a certain fair amount of time, and for the 2 year Solms finished dog test all breeding dogs must pass same, longer , off leash "quiet" test. I'm told the Germans want to have their wine and lunch break while hunting without being distracted by unbehaved animals.....so if they are bonkers they don't have offspring, period. Labs now have so many genetic issues I would not get a pup unless it had parents both tested for ALL know issues. The company name that does this slips my mind right now. Expensive but with it. DK's are very sweet people loving dogs, safe as any with children. That said there is also a "harshness" test to ensure they are not timid and can be use to boar hunt and tract wounded game etc. Plus they are versatile, one dog to do it all, blood track, bay, upland, water. So why labs that have "drive" can't also chill is BS it is just short sighted breeding without still demanding the total package, truly a disservice to the breed .
birddog 68
Well-Known Member
It's actually EIC (I fixed it) It's exercise induced collapse. My lab has it and is a horrible thing to watch. When over stimulated (usually birds) the dog will lose coordination in the hind legs until they collapse. It's heart wrenching to watch her back end collapse and she tries to pull herself with her front legs to get the birds. Not treatable, it's genetic and possibly from inbreeding field trial dogs.
DNA tests are available and all good breeders test for the gene and won't breed a dog if positive.
My dog is a highly trained house dog now.
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Oh ok...... I've heard of EIC
And man is it heart breaking to see your pup suffer!!
adk hunter
Well-Known Member
I've read lots of the good, bad and ugly on here but this EIC issue breaks my heart!!
One more thing to add to my talk tonight...
One more thing to add to my talk tonight...
Oldtime Shooter13
Well-Known Member
First off I have never seen a Fox Red Lab. I have seen black, yellow and liver labs. I have seen light red golden retrieves and both breeds that would point or what you might call pointing, but never a Fox Red one. Now we got the elephant out of the room.
How long was she with this trainer? What did she go to be trained for and did he accomplish the goal? If it was bird work then something happened during training that has made her sulk to retrieve. Did he use an E-Collar as others have suggested? Great tool if used correctly, but one mistake at the wrong time can be real bad. I have used E-Collars, but only for obedience and I have always been very careful on timing and settings depending on the dog. He may have nicked her while picking up a bird and if she is soft natured, it may have soured on feathers all together? If she retrieved when you picked her up from the training then something happen on your watch.
Take her back to having fun and don't push her too hard on feathers. She cannot be allowed to do what she wants and stop retrieving birds all together. But, you cannot take her out of the field and hunting because is sulking to the retrieve. She may snap out of it, but she is still finding the dead bird for you!
If you table train it is the best confidence booster for a dog. They all love being at your level and you can do more with a dog on a table in a month than ground training In six. I have trained every dog flushing and pointing on a table. Best place in the world to do bird introduction work with live harnessed birds and dead bird work. You have complete control and no e-collar needed. Once your happy with their ability on the table you need to re enforce on the ground. If you have to get into force breaking to retrieve I highly suggest a table. It is the best way to do it IMHO.
I have never had a dog that like to retrieve Woodcock! My last girl GSP loved to hunt them, but hated to retrieve them. It is the only bird that she would let other dogs retrieve. Grouse is a tough bird for a pointing dog so she thought she was making a mistake it they flushed. Woodcock think they are hiding and will hold almost forever, she rarely made a mistake on woodcock. She crossed the Rainbow Bridge and is hunting with my good friend in heaven now. That's another story!
How long was she with this trainer? What did she go to be trained for and did he accomplish the goal? If it was bird work then something happened during training that has made her sulk to retrieve. Did he use an E-Collar as others have suggested? Great tool if used correctly, but one mistake at the wrong time can be real bad. I have used E-Collars, but only for obedience and I have always been very careful on timing and settings depending on the dog. He may have nicked her while picking up a bird and if she is soft natured, it may have soured on feathers all together? If she retrieved when you picked her up from the training then something happen on your watch.
Take her back to having fun and don't push her too hard on feathers. She cannot be allowed to do what she wants and stop retrieving birds all together. But, you cannot take her out of the field and hunting because is sulking to the retrieve. She may snap out of it, but she is still finding the dead bird for you!
If you table train it is the best confidence booster for a dog. They all love being at your level and you can do more with a dog on a table in a month than ground training In six. I have trained every dog flushing and pointing on a table. Best place in the world to do bird introduction work with live harnessed birds and dead bird work. You have complete control and no e-collar needed. Once your happy with their ability on the table you need to re enforce on the ground. If you have to get into force breaking to retrieve I highly suggest a table. It is the best way to do it IMHO.
I have never had a dog that like to retrieve Woodcock! My last girl GSP loved to hunt them, but hated to retrieve them. It is the only bird that she would let other dogs retrieve. Grouse is a tough bird for a pointing dog so she thought she was making a mistake it they flushed. Woodcock think they are hiding and will hold almost forever, she rarely made a mistake on woodcock. She crossed the Rainbow Bridge and is hunting with my good friend in heaven now. That's another story!
kurtz.nb
New Member
Thanks for the feedback. We are going to get back to it again this weekend and have been using the wings and bumper for 10 min each night. Keeping it limited keeps her excitement. Crazy thing is I never trained her to point, she just does it. I've never seen this in labs but understand it does exist. Appreciate everyone's feedback!!! Thanks
