Highvoltage
Well-Known Member
Yes sir
The time has come for kids (15) to get their first real rifle….
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Having read the replies - some very good points - and understanding that your boys shoot your 308 well and will be hunting up to deer/black bear sized game I'd still go with the 6.5 CM or PRC. The win 70, Tikka, or a Browning Xbolt 2 are great options. I also had a Weatherby branded Howa in 308 that shot well so could recommend those. Have had 3 tikkas and all have been good. Still have my Tikka CTR in 6.5 CM for practicing my marksmanship/shooting courses. Lots of good options.
All told, I'd recommend a Tikka T3x in 6.5 CM. If you're getting a braked version consider the 6.5 PRC so they can work on spotting their impacts and getting back on target quickly. Try to catch a sale and spend the extra money on good optics and a marksmanship course. I like the Leupold VX3HD with locking elevation turret.
Here in Canada we've modified the NRA Appleseed course (called Mapleseed) and it is an excellent course.
Building a rifle as a family project would be awesome, but I've never done that myself.
All told, I'd recommend a Tikka T3x in 6.5 CM. If you're getting a braked version consider the 6.5 PRC so they can work on spotting their impacts and getting back on target quickly. Try to catch a sale and spend the extra money on good optics and a marksmanship course. I like the Leupold VX3HD with locking elevation turret.
Here in Canada we've modified the NRA Appleseed course (called Mapleseed) and it is an excellent course.
Building a rifle as a family project would be awesome, but I've never done that myself.
Lumbeejake
Member
I had the same question when my son was 15. I bought him a Seekins PH2 in 6.5 PRC. I bought it due to the lifetime warranty. He should never need another hunting rifle for up to elk sized critters.
Never again wood for me.....make beautiful wall hangers....Art....but for field, 15 year old's, something to last a lifetime.... Vanguard's or Howas....270, 6.5 PRC, 7 mm. Just me
hesse
Well-Known Member
So here is my two cents I have always been a Winchester guy till they started making them overseas I just can't justify that money or something made off shore. Since they're young I would look into something that has a barrel nut that you can change barrels out. The barrel maker EJ Shaw he is doing some semi custom rifles for about the same price as the ones that you've been looking at just another option for you and I believe they do a left-handed action also
As far as cartridges go, lots of good ones suggested. Have done a few Gunwerks LRU courses with Brian Poor and Ian Miner, two of their instructors. Both are former marine scout snipers and work as shooting instructors full-time now.
One has a 30 Nosler and the other a 28 Nosler for their big game rifles for elk sized game, but on a recent podcast they both said they'd take their 6.5 CM for a whitetail/mule deer hunt inside 500 yds. They both spoke about how much confidence they both have in their 6.5 CM rifles, the ability to spot their shots, and make quick follow up shots as needed.
If these two guys, with more experience and knowledge than I'll ever have would grab a 6.5 CM, it really convinced me that it is a great option in spite of all the hate it gets.
For me personally, my longest shot on game - made and taken - was with a 6.5 CM so I also have a great deal of confidence in it. This would also apply to any similar cartridge - modest recoil, aerodynamic bullets, high sectional density and modest velocity - 2600 fps to 3000 fps.
For building confidence by shooting from every position out to 1000 yds, making shots at hunting distances chip shots, the 6.5 CM is hard to beat.
Additionally, I think it's a reasonable option for even elk at the hunting distances I think you'll encounter in MO.
One has a 30 Nosler and the other a 28 Nosler for their big game rifles for elk sized game, but on a recent podcast they both said they'd take their 6.5 CM for a whitetail/mule deer hunt inside 500 yds. They both spoke about how much confidence they both have in their 6.5 CM rifles, the ability to spot their shots, and make quick follow up shots as needed.
If these two guys, with more experience and knowledge than I'll ever have would grab a 6.5 CM, it really convinced me that it is a great option in spite of all the hate it gets.
For me personally, my longest shot on game - made and taken - was with a 6.5 CM so I also have a great deal of confidence in it. This would also apply to any similar cartridge - modest recoil, aerodynamic bullets, high sectional density and modest velocity - 2600 fps to 3000 fps.
For building confidence by shooting from every position out to 1000 yds, making shots at hunting distances chip shots, the 6.5 CM is hard to beat.
Additionally, I think it's a reasonable option for even elk at the hunting distances I think you'll encounter in MO.
Most manufacturers make what you seek. Choose, or let them choose, whatever has the features you like: muzzle threads, dbm, twist rate, integral rail, aftermarket support, etc. I like tikkas and rem 700 and clones for this. Keeps me away from the new wave of turkish imports, which seem to be really nice. I am particular about the rear of the bolt, but i somehow dont mind the plastic tikka shroud. I dislike the great savage 10/110 for this reason, though I cannot rationally explain why; they are great.
Starting with LA/SA, 30-06/308, is that satisfactory for your/their needs? They are certainly ample. But a little vanilla for some. Faster is flatter and simpler in the field for holdover. I load for/shoot a lot of different rounds, like over 40, but in the field I almost always use something just under 3000 fps muzzle speed. That said, I have more 308s than any other round. I like conventional/cup n core bullets because they are cheap and they perform at the speeds I have found work best for killing/meat preservation.
280, 280ai, 270, 25-06 all perform for your game limits. The 25 is a first order killer, but borders on too light because of the bullet possibilities due to slow twist. My opinion of course. I use 100gr game kings at 3300, breaking my general rule of 3000 max muzzle speed. It does bruise a lot, but it kills like lightning. The 280ai with 162 sst or eldm is great on the other end of the 25-06. Just a but faster than the ol 30-06, and just a little flatter shooting. Over the 30 bore in that case, look to the Whelen. But it limits range significantly and likely wont be a favorite.
7-08, 260, the Creeds, Souper, 243 are all faster and flatter than the 308. The extreme of the 243 makes it my personal minimum for big game of all types up to 400#. It has worked, but many find it light. You have a different outcome with 7-08 or .26 rounds. The Creedmoor is useful and bests many similar rounds because long bullets work in the 1:8 twist. This is why it has nearly replaced the 25-06. It isnt faster, but it kills farther. As an aside, the 25 Souper is probably dead and will be revived as the 25 Creed which is just fine with me. Ditto the 260, which makes me just a bit sad. I respect Carmichael's writing and invention.
Now, for the others. The WSMs and WSSMs, the SAUMs and the PRCs and the like. I dont see some of them as options, and the others will be around a long time. Hornady's marketing and production and the down range performance of the PRCs will likely keep them valid as the 30-06 and 375 H&H have done; undeniable killing power and thousands upon thousands of successful hunts under them (but so it is with 30/30, yawn). I'm two seasons and half a dozen big game kills with an 8 twist 6.5/284. It is equal to the 6.5 PRC, but niche rather than available at the local farm and ranch or some gas stations. So marketing and production have made the PRCs more than their goofball (equal) counterparts, regardless of storied histories and novel shapes, etc. Not to mention fast twists in factory rifles and the many advantages/outcomes of that.
I wont discuss glass other than to say buy every feature you can possibly afford. Glass is forever, barrels are not.
My kids have started, or will start, big game hunting with a 243. I have several bullet favorites in that: 87 Hornady HPBT (harder than you think), 100 Hornady SPBT (as soft as you think it is), and 95 Nosler BT (ditto). The 87 must meet resistance to work, so shoulders must be shot. There, I said it.
My 15 year old took over my 280ai with 162 SST. Soft, super soft, but long enough to arrest expansion and penetrate like mad. Like a plastic tipped Partition, but cheaper and way sleeker. A true killer of the things, but possibly not for rear-on shots of elk, etc. The 162 ELDm can interchange with the SST.
My favorite 308 Win bullet is the Hornady 165 BTSP. It can shed the core, where the same bullet in flat base generally does not. Im ok with it, even on elk at 400. Soft helps the "little" 308 shoot above its diminutive weight class. But don't expect to hold on at extended range; the 308 isn't fast enough to kick hard nor shoot flat.
Factory ammo can be had to match the ammo combos I mention. Factory rifles too. But the guns you put a bunch of effort and thought into could be your favorites. But then a bolt '06 could too and it would save you/them thousands in other guns, safes, insurance, more optics, dies, brass….
So, after all that: Tikka T3 variant in 30-06 or 308. Done. Go smaller diameter if you want flatter shooting and or less recoil.
Starting with LA/SA, 30-06/308, is that satisfactory for your/their needs? They are certainly ample. But a little vanilla for some. Faster is flatter and simpler in the field for holdover. I load for/shoot a lot of different rounds, like over 40, but in the field I almost always use something just under 3000 fps muzzle speed. That said, I have more 308s than any other round. I like conventional/cup n core bullets because they are cheap and they perform at the speeds I have found work best for killing/meat preservation.
280, 280ai, 270, 25-06 all perform for your game limits. The 25 is a first order killer, but borders on too light because of the bullet possibilities due to slow twist. My opinion of course. I use 100gr game kings at 3300, breaking my general rule of 3000 max muzzle speed. It does bruise a lot, but it kills like lightning. The 280ai with 162 sst or eldm is great on the other end of the 25-06. Just a but faster than the ol 30-06, and just a little flatter shooting. Over the 30 bore in that case, look to the Whelen. But it limits range significantly and likely wont be a favorite.
7-08, 260, the Creeds, Souper, 243 are all faster and flatter than the 308. The extreme of the 243 makes it my personal minimum for big game of all types up to 400#. It has worked, but many find it light. You have a different outcome with 7-08 or .26 rounds. The Creedmoor is useful and bests many similar rounds because long bullets work in the 1:8 twist. This is why it has nearly replaced the 25-06. It isnt faster, but it kills farther. As an aside, the 25 Souper is probably dead and will be revived as the 25 Creed which is just fine with me. Ditto the 260, which makes me just a bit sad. I respect Carmichael's writing and invention.
Now, for the others. The WSMs and WSSMs, the SAUMs and the PRCs and the like. I dont see some of them as options, and the others will be around a long time. Hornady's marketing and production and the down range performance of the PRCs will likely keep them valid as the 30-06 and 375 H&H have done; undeniable killing power and thousands upon thousands of successful hunts under them (but so it is with 30/30, yawn). I'm two seasons and half a dozen big game kills with an 8 twist 6.5/284. It is equal to the 6.5 PRC, but niche rather than available at the local farm and ranch or some gas stations. So marketing and production have made the PRCs more than their goofball (equal) counterparts, regardless of storied histories and novel shapes, etc. Not to mention fast twists in factory rifles and the many advantages/outcomes of that.
I wont discuss glass other than to say buy every feature you can possibly afford. Glass is forever, barrels are not.
My kids have started, or will start, big game hunting with a 243. I have several bullet favorites in that: 87 Hornady HPBT (harder than you think), 100 Hornady SPBT (as soft as you think it is), and 95 Nosler BT (ditto). The 87 must meet resistance to work, so shoulders must be shot. There, I said it.
My 15 year old took over my 280ai with 162 SST. Soft, super soft, but long enough to arrest expansion and penetrate like mad. Like a plastic tipped Partition, but cheaper and way sleeker. A true killer of the things, but possibly not for rear-on shots of elk, etc. The 162 ELDm can interchange with the SST.
My favorite 308 Win bullet is the Hornady 165 BTSP. It can shed the core, where the same bullet in flat base generally does not. Im ok with it, even on elk at 400. Soft helps the "little" 308 shoot above its diminutive weight class. But don't expect to hold on at extended range; the 308 isn't fast enough to kick hard nor shoot flat.
Factory ammo can be had to match the ammo combos I mention. Factory rifles too. But the guns you put a bunch of effort and thought into could be your favorites. But then a bolt '06 could too and it would save you/them thousands in other guns, safes, insurance, more optics, dies, brass….
So, after all that: Tikka T3 variant in 30-06 or 308. Done. Go smaller diameter if you want flatter shooting and or less recoil.
There still kinda small framed. I think they could shoot an 06 but it might beat them up a little bit honestly. One of the twins would not care his brother on the other hand not so much. I agree about the 06 but think I might go the 6.5 route for them for now. I wish they could handle a 300WM and I would call it good but I know that's not the case lol.
There is so much covered in all of this and all solid point and I agree with everything you all are throwing out. I love those wood guns but you guys are right. They're 15 year old boys. The odds of that stick staying nice is slim to none with kids. They drop stuff. I love the idea of building one but I'll be honest it's not in my wheel house. The 6.5CM is a good idea after listening to what you guys had to say about that, some solid points for sure. I had one and it was nice to shoot for sure but I wanted a little more power for out west. I personally like 7mm's. I'm going to go look at the Tika's and try and find some Howa's also and look at them too. I really appreciate all the pointers and things to think about. I'll be back home in a couple weeks so I think we will take a trip to Bass Pro national HQ not far from the house and let them should some of the above rifles and see what they like.
Papa762!!
Active Member
All that sounds good. At 13 my rifle was a 30/06 Mauser 98 conversion. 1959. I sighted it in OK but didn't know why the next box didn't hit like the first. What, 220 gr?
I bought my first high powered rifle myself at 13. It was a Remington Model 6 pump 270 with a Redfield 3 x 9 scope. The whole rig cost me $381.00. I still have it. I still like the way it comes up with its Monte Carlo stock. It still looks good. I've never thought the recoil from it was harsh or unpleasant even though it had a hard butt plate. The worst thing about that rifle was the trigger. It was awful but I didn't know enough at the time to know that.
It sounds like they will want to try a big cartridge like the 300 win mag at some point. And that would be fine. But I don't think I would buy that for them. I would think more along the lines of a utility cartridge that can handle up to Elk. There are a bunch of cartridges today that fit into that category.
It sounds like they will want to try a big cartridge like the 300 win mag at some point. And that would be fine. But I don't think I would buy that for them. I would think more along the lines of a utility cartridge that can handle up to Elk. There are a bunch of cartridges today that fit into that category.
Rflshootr
Well-Known Member
There are still other options, but the drawback is available ammo. If you reload, it's not a problem.There still kinda small framed. I think they could shoot an 06 but it might beat them up a little bit honestly. One of the twins would not care his brother on the other hand not so much. I agree about the 06 but think I might go the 6.5 route for them for now. I wish they could handle a 300WM and I would call it good but I know that's not the case lol.
A 260 Rem has more capacity then a creedmoor, but the ammo available is mostly target bullets, not hunting bullets.
Then there is the 7mm-08. Ammo is available, but a little more pricey. I would look for ammo with a 120 grain bullet for lessened recoil.
Then there is the 308 Win. Plenty of ammo available and I have seen reduced recoil options with 125 grain bullets. That is plenty for deer if you keep the shots within a reasonable distance. I'd say 250-300 yards wouldn't be a problem.
If you reload, any of them would work, including the 30-06 as you can load lighter loads with lighter weight bullets to produce less recoil. Then in future years, any of them can be pushed to full potential once the boys can handle it. So, there are options. You just have to do some reading to make a wise choice. To me, If I were going to hunt elk, I would not want anything smaller than a 7mm-08, but that's my opinion.
One other thing to consider is a good recoil pad. Remington has been putting their super cell pads on some models. They definitely help with recoil. Other than that, a good limbsaver pad can be installed. The stock will need to be cut to install them properly. If you can find a rifle with a 1" factory installed pad, all the better. Don't think that those solid 1/2" rubber pads do anything, they dont.
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Longrangers
Well-Known Member
Just one other thought. I personally target a factory rifle that is based on a Remington blue print due many components out there to modify them if you want.
