Suppressor purchasing process advice

[tail_hunter]

Wow thank you all for your replies, this has been very helpful. I'm thinking using a lawyer to draw up a trust is most likely the route I will go. I would like to do some more research on the canned trusts from silencershop. I looked up the FFL I use near me and it shows as a power user in silencershops search. If I have a lawyer create my trust, can I still use the silencershop kiosk for fingerprinting and photos?

 

[Munch]

Wow thank you all for your replies, this has been very helpful. I'm thinking using a lawyer to draw up a trust is most likely the route I will go. I would like to do some more research on the canned trusts from silencershop. I looked up the FFL I use near me and it shows as a power user in silencershops search. If I have a lawyer create my trust, can I still use the silencershop kiosk for fingerprinting and photos?

If you go the lawyer route, which I did...

The best method is to order finger print cards from BATFE forms web site (link embedded). Fill in personal information, then click on Fingerprint cards. You need card "FBI FD-258LE" for NFA. You need TWO finger print cards per NFA device application.

Generally you can go to your local police department or county sheriff's office to be fingerprinted. Some charge a fee, some do not...my sheriff does not charge to be printed.

There are plenty of apps (free) for iPhone and Android devices that take an image in proper passport format. Barring that, most Walgreens or UPS Store can take a passport photo for you.

I recommend delivering a notarized copy of your trust, fingerprint cards and passport photos to your local FFL/SOT who will be doing the transfer for you. Having one person do all the paperwork makes mistakes less likely.

Some online vendors will go ahead and submit the Form 4 on your behalf. Once submitted, NFA Branch issues a Control Number. You can then personally mail the trust, fingerprint cards and passport photos to NFA Branch referencing the Control Number. But again, I am aware of issues going this route; rare, but they still occur.

If you are purchasing from the SilencerShop, and using a lawyer created trust, you will likely need to FedEx a copy of the trust and fingerprint cards to them. You can probably email the passport photo once scanned.

Some FFL/SOTs now use the digital fingerprint process which makes ink/paper finger print cards unnecessary. This is super convenient as nothing needs to be mailed to NFA Branch. The review process begins immediately once all docs are submitted electronically.

I used to be a Type 07 FFL and Class 3 SOT holder. eForms have greatly helped submitting to NFA Branch. But eFroms and NFA Branch are still going through growing pains. When an individual's forms/docs come in from different sources, mistakes happen. I typically recommend using a local FFL/SOT to do everything. Especially if your FFL/SOT has invested in the $1500 digital finger print scanner approved by the FBI. All required forms/documents get electronically submitted at one time. If you end up mailing docs in to NFA Branch, and they arrive on the 15th day after the eForm 4 was submitted, the entire package gets revoked, requiring resubmission of everything. A RPITA!

 

[biednick]

No private party sale of suppressors. Has to be transferred through a dealer ($100 or more from what I've seen, yes, more than a firearms transfer as there's a lot more work). Not many used suppressor sales/transfers as a result.

This is wrong. You can transfer a silencer (or any other NFA firearm) from a private party to a private party on a form 4 as long as both parties reside in the same state. I have done several. Involving a dealer for incurrs an additional $200 tax and wait time to transfer to the dealer in addition to whatever fee the dealer charges.

If you sell to someone out of state is has to be transferred on a form 4 to a dealer in your state (which incurrs a $200 transfer tax), transferred from your dealer to a dealer in the buyer's state on a form 3 for free, then transferred to the buyer on a form for with a $200 tax.

 

[tail_hunter]

If you go the lawyer route, which I did...

The best method is to order finger print cards from BATFE forms web site (link embedded). Fill in personal information, then click on Fingerprint cards. You need card "FBI FD-258LE" for NFA. You need TWO finger print cards per NFA device application.

Generally you can go to your local police department or county sheriff's office to be fingerprinted. Some charge a fee, some do not...my sheriff does not charge to be printed.

There are plenty of apps (free) for iPhone and Android devices that take an image in proper passport format. Barring that, most Walgreens or UPS Store can take a passport photo for you.

I recommend delivering a notarized copy of your trust, fingerprint cards and passport photos to your local FFL/SOT who will be doing the transfer for you. Having one person do all the paperwork makes mistakes less likely.

Some online vendors will go ahead and submit the Form 4 on your behalf. Once submitted, NFA Branch issues a Control Number. You can then personally mail the trust, fingerprint cards and passport photos to NFA Branch referencing the Control Number. But again, I am aware of issues going this route; rare, but they still occur.

If you are purchasing from the SilencerShop, and using a lawyer created trust, you will likely need to FedEx a copy of the trust and fingerprint cards to them. You can probably email the passport photo once scanned.

Some FFL/SOTs now use the digital fingerprint process which makes ink/paper finger print cards unnecessary. This is super convenient as nothing needs to be mailed to NFA Branch. The review process begins immediately once all docs are submitted electronically.

I used to be a Type 07 FFL and Class 3 SOT holder. eForms have greatly helped submitting to NFA Branch. But eFroms and NFA Branch are still going through growing pains. When an individual's forms/docs come in from different sources, mistakes happen. I typically recommend using a local FFL/SOT to do everything. Especially if your FFL/SOT has invested in the $1500 digital finger print scanner approved by the FBI. All required forms/documents get electronically submitted at one time. If you end up mailing docs in to NFA Branch, and they arrive on the 15th day after the eForm 4 was submitted, the entire package gets revoked, requiring resubmission of everything. A RPITA!

I'll have to call my FFL and see if he has the digital finger print scanner. He shows up on the silencershop kiosk search list but I'm not sure if the kiosk is a digital finger print scanner or just means he's connected to the silencershop dealer network. Based on what you've said I definitely think doing it all together digitally is the way to go.

 

[Munch]

I'll have to call my FFL and see if he has the digital finger print scanner. He shows up on the silencershop kiosk search list but I'm not sure if the kiosk is a digital finger print scanner or just means he's connected to the silencershop dealer network. Based on what you've said I definitely think doing it all together digitally is the way to go.

To my knowledge, there are (were) only two digital finger print units FBI approved for use. There may be more units now.

 

[Hcollier]

I have puchased with and without a trust. You will have more headaches with a trust. The less people in the trust the better. You have to have updated photos annually and if some members in your trust aren't tech savvy it is time consuming getting photos submitted. The trust is nice for sharing a suppressor but it can be a pain in the *** jumping through all the beaucratic bs. I'm waiting on a TBAC 9 which has been over 2 1/2 years gettin processed. Still don't have it. Having purchased suppressors previously doesn't mean squat with the ATF. When you go to pick it up at the ffl they make a NICS call to make sure you haven't committed any crimes since the ATF approved your stamp. This new left wing administration has slowed down the process I'm sure. Hope your experience is better than mine in dealing with beauracy.
Stand for truth and don't bend to cultural pressure!

 

[Munch]

I have puchased with and without a trust. You will have more headaches with a trust. The less people in the trust the better. You have to have updated photos annually and if some members in your trust aren't tech savvy it is time consuming getting photos submitted. The trust is nice for sharing a suppressor but it can be a pain in the *** jumping through all the beaucratic bs. I'm waiting on a TBAC 9 which has been over 2 1/2 years gettin processed. Still don't have it. Having purchased suppressors previously doesn't mean squat with the ATF. When you go to pick it up at the ffl they make a NICS call to make sure you haven't committed any crimes since the ATF approved your stamp. This new left wing administration has slowed down the process I'm sure. Hope your experience is better than mine in dealing with beauracy.
Stand for truth and don't bend to cultural pressure!

I would submit, the ease in using a trust is directly related to the lawyer writing the trust and its exact wording.

For the most part, the NFA trust route was initially setup to allow citizens to own NFA devices in states that specifically denied individual ownership. Hence, a trust was used to hold the devices generally for the use by one person, the owner/trustee.

NFA rules regarding trusts and NFA devices changed under the Obama Administration.

Indeed, if you want your trust to share NFA devices with "responsible individuals", the process becomes very technical and requires all named individuals to comply with the regulations within the specified time frame.

There is a major difference between "responsible individuals" and "beneficiaries" named in a trust.

Personally, I do not loan out my non-NFA firearms to family members unless I'm present during their use. The legal ramifications today are mind bending, even more so in anti-gun jurisdictions. As trustee, I certainly cannot envision allowing "responsible individuals" to use my trust's NFA devices I spent serious coin purchasing. But I'm good with each one of us making their own determination regarding such use.

Designating named, multiple responsible individuals in the trust allows those individuals to use the NFA devices held by a trust without the trustee present. Naming "responsible individuals" was not a major consideration or an original intent of an NFA trust. However, if you are the trustee and do not list any "responsible individuals" in your trust, only beneficiaries, the trust route is very easy in my opinion. The trust allows for you (trustee) to state how the assets of the trust are distributed in the event of your death. Without such a document in place and in the event of your death, the distribution of your NFA devices is very complex and burdensome for the executor of your estate. None of us thinks much about dying, but none of us are guaranteed to see tomorrow's sunrise. Why not make things as easy as possible for our family and friends who have an interest in owning some of our assets.

Personally, I think the trust allows for far more flexibility than individual ownership.

 

[biednick]

When you go to pick it up at the ffl they make a NICS call to make sure you haven't committed any crimes since the ATF approved your stamp. This new left wing administration has slowed down the process I'm sure.

The dealer should check box 28 on the 4473 stating no background check is required since it was completed during the NFA approval process. You still need to fill out the 4473, but they don't need to do a background check. If they run a BGC it's either store policy or your dealer doesn't know the law.

With eForms which rolled out in late 2021 the wait time has gone from about 14 months to about 9 months, though wait times on eForms have been increasing since the first approvals early last year.

 

[tail_hunter]

I would submit, the ease in using a trust is directly related to the lawyer writing the trust and its exact wording.

For the most part, the NFA trust route was initially setup to allow citizens to own NFA devices in states that specifically denied individual ownership. Hence, a trust was used to hold the devices generally for the use by one person, the owner/trustee.

NFA rules regarding trusts and NFA devices changed under the Obama Administration.

Indeed, if you want your trust to share NFA devices with "responsible individuals", the process becomes very technical and requires all named individuals to comply with the regulations within the specified time frame.

There is a major difference between "responsible individuals" and "beneficiaries" named in a trust.

Personally, I do not loan out my non-NFA firearms to family members unless I'm present during their use. The legal ramifications today are mind bending, even more so in anti-gun jurisdictions. As trustee, I certainly cannot envision allowing "responsible individuals" to use my trust's NFA devices I spent serious coin purchasing. But I'm good with each one of us making their own determination regarding such use.

Designating named, multiple responsible individuals in the trust allows those individuals to use the NFA devices held by a trust without the trustee present. Naming "responsible individuals" was not a major consideration or an original intent of an NFA trust. However, if you are the trustee and do not list any "responsible individuals" in your trust, only beneficiaries, the trust route is very easy in my opinion. The trust allows for you (trustee) to state how the assets of the trust are distributed in the event of your death. Without such a document in place and in the event of your death, the distribution of your NFA devices is very complex and burdensome for the executor of your estate. None of us thinks much about dying, but none of us are guaranteed to see tomorrow's sunrise. Why not make things as easy as possible for our family and friends who have an interest in owning some of our assets.

Personally, I think the trust allows for far more flexibility than individual ownership.

Would you care to expand on the bolded portions? At this time I am far more interested in responsible individuals sharing suppressors than the beneficiary aspects. While I accept that tomorrow isn't guaranteed, my life expectancy is several more decades.

 

[Munch]

Would you care to expand on the bolded portions? At this time I am far more interested in responsible individuals sharing suppressors than the beneficiary aspects. While I accept that tomorrow isn't guaranteed, my life expectancy is several more decades.

I'm not exactly sure what you would like more information regarding...

I am not interested in sharing my NFA devices in my absence, hence I have no responsible persons listed in my trust.

Yet, if I am present at the square range, training, or hunting with a partner, anyone who can legally possess firearms can borrow/use my NFA devices as long as I remain nearby.

I am far more interested in the beneficiary aspects of the trust. Absent a trust, it becomes problematic for who or what entity holds the devices until your Last Will and Testament has been fully executed by the Executor of your estate. And the Executor's duties will not be completed until the NFA devices have been transferred by NFA Branch according to your wishes. Execution of estate documents may vary from state to state; I don't know. But that is how it was explained to me by my attorney in SC. No Last Will and Testament (or NFA Trust with named beneficiaries), your NFA devices become a nasty can of worms for your executor and an attorney to deal with.

Most of us have a decent life expectancy, or we wouldn't be willing to wait 9+ months for an approved Form 4. But accidents happen. An NFA Trust takes such into consideration by naming a beneficiary (beneficiaries).

The USMC had us do our Last Will and Testament before deploying the first time. I have had up-to-date estate documents in place ever since. The NFA trust supplements your Last Will and Testament. A well written NFA Trust by an experienced attorney, knowledgeable in the estate and firearm laws of your state, can prepare a very well thought out NFA trust. And there in lies the kicker. There are not that many estate attorneys highly knowledgeable in firearm laws and in particular the NFA.

As for your second highlighted paragraph...
When I lived in NC, individuals were expressly prohibited from owning NFA devices by state law (and I think they still are; note IV.B.8/9/10). However, there are exemptions. My LLC was exempt becuase I was a Type 07 FFL and Class 3 SOT holder "in business". To get around this very restrictive law, trusts were set up in NC to hold NFA devices for trustees. Trusts were allowed because a trust is not a "person". Only "persons" are specifically prohibited by the NC law.

During the Obama Administration, the regulations were amended requiring trusts holding NFA devices to be approved by NFA Branch. Also, applicants had to start submitting passport photographs. There were many other changes as well.

I hope this answers your questions.

Always best to seek out good legal advice when it comes to estate planning and creating legal documents.

 

[tail_hunter]

Sorry I should have been more specific. I meant to ask about the trust process becoming very technical and potential legal ramifications for loaning out a rifle. I don't want to cause myself unnecessary headaches setting up a trust if it just isn't worth the convenience of sharing. Maybe I am naive to the risks when, for instance, leaving a rifle with my father because I was shooting at the range we've built on his property and didn't want to leave it in my truck while I ran errands before heading home.

 

[cohunt]

Everyone should have a general trust-- the process and time involved with distribution to beneficiaries far outweighs the headaches of going through probate court for a "last will and testament "

I have 2 separate trusts-- 1 for my general assets ( land/personal items etc)--- and one for my firearms/nfa items--- that way they won't tie up/burden the other if something legal comes up....you should also have a "will" that states that upon your death everything that is not in your trusts (vehicles /etc) gets automatically transferred to your trust---- no will, no probate court, far less time and hassle to secure items like deeds, bank accounts, stocks/bonds/401k etc.

Wills are a pita, revocable trusts are the way to make things much easier for beneficiaries and trustees.

You can have multiple trusts-- best to get a local attorney involved when creating one to make sure all aspects are legal in your state of residence

ATF does not determine if your trust would be legal or not- they just want to see that you have one set up....if it wasn't written legally then upon your death it can get problematic

 

[Munch]

Sorry I should have been more specific. I meant to ask about the trust process becoming very technical and potential legal ramifications for loaning out a rifle. I don't want to cause myself unnecessary headaches setting up a trust if it just isn't worth the convenience of sharing. Maybe I am naive to the risks when, for instance, leaving a rifle with my father because I was shooting at the range we've built on his property and didn't want to leave it in my truck while I ran errands before heading home.

As I learned through the decades, there are a lot of nuances to the NFA. And regulatory interpretation seems to change with the tides.

Regrettably, under the present administration, we are seeing regulations being written in the most vague manner, leaving interpretation at the discretion of the BATFE agent.

One phrase that is cited in NFA is "contiguous property". How and when that phrase can and will be applied is not so apparent regarding individuals using "borrowed" devices and where you are located on the property. So where you have to be relative to the "loaned" NFA device will be up to the agent you encounter.

However, named responsible individuals (RIs) in the trust do not "borrow" the devices. They are free to use the devices at their leisure. Further, there is no legal requirement for RI's to gain permission prior to use or inform the trustee of their use unless so stipulated in the NFA trust documents.

Responsible individuals listed in your trust will be subjected to the very same NFA Branch scrutiny the trustee is put through every time you add an NFA device to the trust.

Named responsible individuals will be permitted by NFA regulations to possess all NFA devices listed in the trust without the trustee being present. At the federal level, this is a non-issue. But at some state and local levels, it can be a huge legal issue, potentially involving criminality. Why it is imperative, in my opinion, to retain a good attorney to not only write your trust but inform you of the legalities at your state and local jurisdiction(s); especially when it comes to responsible individuals using NFA devices listed in the trust.

Absent a trust with named responsible individuals, you will never be able to "loan" an NFA device to anyone unless you are in the "immediate vicinity". Again, another ambiguous term left up to the interpretation of a BATFE agent. In my experience, ranges that allow members/guests to use an NFA device always have an employee/member who is a responsible individual very close to the person using the NFA device. These are generally businesses/clubs holding an FFL/SOT with named responsible individuals just like a trust.

 

[Munch]

Everyone should have a general trust-- the process and time involved with distribution to beneficiaries far outweighs the headaches of going through probate court for a "last will and testament "

I have 2 separate trusts-- 1 for my general assets ( land/personal items etc)--- and one for my firearms/nfa items--- that way they won't tie up/burden the other if something legal comes up....you should also have a "will" that states that upon your death everything that is not in your trusts (vehicles /etc) gets automatically transferred to your trust---- no will, no probate court, far less time and hassle to secure items like deeds, bank accounts, stocks/bonds/401k etc.

Wills are a pita, revocable trusts are the way to make things much easier for beneficiaries and trustees.

You can have multiple trusts-- best to get a local attorney involved when creating one to make sure all aspects are legal in your state of residence

ATF does not determine if your trust would be legal or not- they just want to see that you have one set up....if it wasn't written legally then upon your death it can get problematic

Very good point! Probate is public! A trust remains a private document outside of probate.