Speed needed, moly, HELP!

To all,

I'm confused... why is george garland getting 195 fps more with moly in the same bullet (115 dtac)???

He's using way more powder though... so back to the original question... can I run moly boolits faster than standards??

Tex

The answer is yes!!!!

Look in the Barnes reloading manual #3 there are plenty of examples of coated and non coated
bullets with velocity increases using coated bullets.

It does take more powder but with less friction velocity is increased and pressure is still at a safe level.

This was a good question but apparently a controversial one.

J E CUSTOM
 
In my experience you really don't gain much with moly and if you are not familiar with it. it will frustrate you. one thing is for sure if you clean your barrel completely it will take 2 or 3 shots -- to recoat the inside of the barrel with moly to get the groups back. and you will not get more speed just because it is moly coated. you will get less if you use the same charge. however with moly you can get by with more powered due to the less pressure that the moly bullets create.
Now back to this George thing. Are you using the same kind of powder and the same charge?? even the primer? and is his barrel the same lenght? and his barrel cut rifled or button. As far as speed goes their are several things that can make 100 fps differance. Even the condition will make some differences. Each thing i have mentioned could effect speed a just a couple together would get you 100fps one way or the other.
My big question is if your gun will really shoot a certain load don't worry about 100fts just know your gun. dial it in and kill it. 100 fps is not noticable until you get out past 300 yards or so.


I may not have made this clear. George is getting 195 fps faster in his gun (both bullets fired from his gun, moly 195 faster.)

I know that I wil have to increase the charge, and from you I have learned that moly does in fact reduce pressure.

Tex
 
J E,
This was a good question but apparently a controversial one.

+1.

Thanks for letting me know a final answer.

The Barnes manual is where the original question came from.

Texas
 
And the Barnes coated bullets are no longer available, maybe they weren't magical after all..
 
Yea, I agree... I haven't seen much magic from barnes in.... my life.
icon13.gif


I am moly-coating 87 gr. v-maxes and 90 gr. sciroccos at home. Best BC's I could find in the 90 grain range that were huntable.

Texas
 
Yea, I agree... I haven't seen much magic from barnes in.... my life.
icon13.gif


I am moly-coating 87 gr. v-maxes and 90 gr. sciroccos at home. Best BC's I could find in the 90 grain range that were huntable.

Texas

I have tried a lot of barnes and had mixed reviews also on the smaller bullets 30cal and down
but like the 416s and 454s.

As to the coated ones the 140gr .284 worked well in the 7 STW at over 3500 ft/sec.

The point with using the barnes book they had the same bullets with or without coatings
for comparison.

I to molly coat my own bullets like you and they do increase velocity.

The down side to moly is that cleaning is more extensive ( Difficult ).

J E CUSTOM
 
I am also a fan of the 416s... that is the main reason I still look a barnes despite not having much magic with the small bores.

Thanks for the info. I've got to go scrub some more moly of the carpet and out of my chamber.

TEX
 
Most of the model 70 winchesters in 243 were 1 in 10 twist and they shot the 100+gr bullets
fine but the 6mm remingtion came out with a 1 in 12 twist an the winchesters spanked there ***
and thats why the 243 became so popular.

A faster twist is recomended but the question was if his barrel would shoot a 105 gr A Max
and I think it will.

All rifles like certain bullets and the only way to find out is to try them.

Most of the people on long range hunting like faster twist and most bench rest shooters like
slower twist. so there is no fast and hard rule about twist rates only recommendations.

J E CUSTOM

Sorry guys, but I've gotta weigh in on this one. There are hard and fast rules about twist, and they have to do with stability. You cannot use a too slow twist and have the bullet perform well. The 1x9" combination is a problem with the heaviest bullets being discussed here, and it would be a waste of time and barrel life to experiment with them. The heaviest I can recommend in the Berger line is a 95 VLD for a 1x9" twist. The Sierra 107 won't work in a twist this slow, either. Some of the really heavy round nose designs would probably work here, but they're not long-range bullets by any stretch. There are some physics issues involved here that just aren't open to debate. If you have these bullets working in a gun billed as a 1x9", then your actual twist in that gun is faster than advertised, or some other issues are involved. Always go with more twist than you need if there's any question as to whether a bullet will stabilze or not. It'll rarely cause any problem, while a too slow twist rate always will.

Kevin Thomas
Berger Bullets
 
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Well Kevin, I guess we can do away with the hard and fast rules, because I got the gun yesterday and the 105 moly a-max shot a .336 5 shot group at 100 yards... doing an average (10 shot) of 3112 fps.

I would not say that the rules are poor, but they must be guidlines not rules.

I've also got a 1:12 300 WSM that shoots 208 gr. A-max bullets very nicely. What a coincidence...

As you probably know, premium barrels often do unexpected wonders for their owners.

Also, I like the VLD, but I can't get them in my magazine since they "MUST" be seated to touch the rifling. Good for targets tho.

Of course, with all of this being said, there's no way in hell I'd try a 115 or 118... That's pushing it...

Thanks.

TEX
 
As I said, if there's a rifle with "too slow" a twist that is shooting something that it otherwise shouldn't, then there's factors that are unaccounted for in the mix. You'd be surprised how much variance there is in twist rates when they are actually measured. This is one reason that cut barrels are my preference when dealing with bullets that would be that close to the stability limit; they don't vary as much as buttoned barrels do since the twist is more controlled during the manufacturing process. Hey, with all the variables that go into these systems it still amazes me that we can hit the ocean from a dingy, but stability isn't a negotiable issue. A bullet is either stable, or it isn't. Spend too much time hanging around right on the line, and I guarantee you, it'll bite you at some point.

The seating depth issue is a lot more flexible, and we don't suggest that the VLDs must be seated into the rifling. Eric Stecker wrote a very decent description of how to determine the correct seating depth for your rifle with VLDs, and it resulted in some surprising recommendations. It's posted on here, for anyone who'd like to read it.

Just trying to save some folks a little aggravation here where the twist issues are concerned, but everyone's free to see for themselves. Hey,sometimes you get a surprise, and that's part of what keeps this interesting!

Kevin Thomas
Berger Bullets
 
Last edited:
Sorry guys, but I've gotta weigh in on this one. There are hard and fast rules about twist, and they have to do with stability. You cannot use a too slow twist and have the bullet perform well. The 1x9" combination is a problem with the heaviest bullets being discussed here, and it would be a waste of time and barrel life to experiment with them. The heaviest I can recommend in the Berger line is a 95 VLD for a 1x9" twist. The Sierra 107 won't work in a twist this slow, either. Some of the really heavy round nose designs would probably work here, but they're not long-range bullets by any stretch. There are some physics issues involved here that just aren't open to debate. If you have these bullets working in a gun billed as a 1x9", then your actual twist in that gun is faster than advertised, or some other issues are involved. Always go with more twist than you need if there's any question as to whether a bullet will stabilze or not. It'll rarely cause any problem, while a too slow twist rate always will.

Kevin Thomas
Berger Bullets

Kevin: I'm sure you know more about bullets than I do but I am also older than you and can
remember when a twist rate of 1 in 9 was as fast as you could find in any rifle and they shot
well even back then.

Bullets have come a long way but if you look at the bench rest crowd they like the slower twist
and we all know what there priorty is (Accuracy) so I will not argue with your logic but I will take
issue with any absolute rule because someone can and will prove it wrong.

I am always willing to learn something new ,so if his rifle is a 1in 9 twist and shoots the 107s
well then why do they shoot well if there is a law that can't be broken or debated ?

An example of this that I recently built a 223 WSSM in a 1 in 15 twist and guess what , it shoots
the 64 and 70 gr bullets very good ( less than 1/2 MOA and testing is not completed) And the
bonus is they are over 100 ft/sec faster than advertised velocitys. And when have you ever
seen a factory round exceed there listed velocity by any amount much less over a 100 ft/sec in
the same barrel length.

Also why would any factory lie about their twist rates when it is so easy to check?

Just asking : not trying to start an argument

J E CUSTOM
 
J E,
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not looking for an argument here either. That's really not my style. However, from your comments, I don't think I made myself clear. I never said the manufacturers lied about their twists. I promise you, they are as honest as they can possibly be when stating the twist rate of a given barrel. But there are problems in making barrels that result in a certain plus or minus when rifling it. In other words, that 1x9" may be a 1x8.5" or a 1x9.5", something like that. As I said, this is particularly true with buttoned barrels. Twist rate in these barrels is controlled by the pitch in that carbide button as it is either pushed or pulled through the bore, and is subject to speeding up or slowing down as it encounters hard or soft spots in the barrel. So, while the button may indeed be cut properly to produce a true 1x9", there are other factors that may cause this to vary somewhat. This is why I always advise to go slightly faster than whatever calculation leaves you with a stability factor of 1.1 or 1.2. Benchrest shooters may not agree, but for the rest of us, a stability factor in the range of 1.5 to 2.0 is far better for a hunting rifle. Cut rifled barrels are mechanically controlled during the cutting process, more rigidly locked into their twist rates, as it were. They tend to be a bit closer to their stated twists, which can be a good thing if you're flirting around that borderline stability area. Now, which is better? That depends on the care the barrelmakerputs in and the quality of his work. There are truly superb barrels out there made by just about every imaginable process. Just as surely, there are so-so and really lousy barrels by every process as well. On my own competitive guns, I have cut barrels, buttoned barrels and eve a few hammer-forged barrels (a couple of truly superb old Winchester Ultra Match barrels made 30+ years ago), and they all shoot very, very well. Over the past twenty years I've burned up literally hundreds of Hart (buttoned) barrels, and have found them to be outstanding. Wouldn't have kept using them if they weren't. Ditto for Satern (cut), Krieger (cut and buttoned) and a host of others. As I said, it's a question of the care and quality of the maker, not the process.

That said, the actual (true) twist rate of the barrel is only one factor that comes into consideration here. Yes, the physics issues here are hard and fast, but you do see things that don't quite match the results of all that head scratching. The answer there isn't that the rules are wrong, but that there's something (or more likely, several) that wasn't accounted for in the equation. The issues that go into these problems can be staggering, and most of the formulas that allow us to come up with a quick and dirty twist prediction (Greenhill comes to mind) are simplified by overlooking or omitting several of these. It works, but there's wiggle room built into them. That, incidentally, is why they tend to be so conservate (again, like the Greenhill).

J E, no argument intended here, I hope it isn't taken that way. Just trying to shed a little more light on a very complex topic. If you want to get a better view on this, I'd recommend Moder Exterior Ballistics, by the late Bob McCoy. Bob was an aeroballistician with the Army's ballistics lab at Aberdeen Proving Ground, and had the opportunity to test every theory, every change, every new idea that came along for over twenty years on a range that was fully instrumented to learn about every aspect of a bullets flight imaginable. If there's a question, chances are Bob answered it at some point. He was a neat guy, and a very dedicated shooter himself.

If I have left anything out, bring it up and we'll see if we can't figure it out.

Kevin Thomas
Berger Bullets
 
J E,
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not looking for an argument here either. That's really not my style. However, from your comments, I don't think I made myself clear. I never said the manufacturers lied about their twists. I promise you, they are as honest as they can possibly be when stating the twist rate of a given barrel. But there are problems in making barrels that result in a certain plus or minus when rifling it. In other words, that 1x9" may be a 1x8.5" or a 1x9.5", something like that. As I said, this is particularly true with buttoned barrels. Twist rate in these barrels is controlled by the pitch in that carbide button as it is either pushed or pulled through the bore, and is subject to speeding up or slowing down as it encounters hard or soft spots in the barrel. So, while the button may indeed be cut properly to produce a true 1x9", there are other factors that may cause this to vary somewhat. This is why I always advise to go slightly faster than whatever calculation leaves you with a stability factor of 1.1 or 1.2. Benchrest shooters may not agree, but for the rest of us, a stability factor in the range of 1.5 to 2.0 is far better for a hunting rifle. Cut rifled barrels are mechanically controlled during the cutting process, more rigidly locked into their twist rates, as it were. They tend to be a bit closer to their stated twists, which can be a good thing if you're flirting around that borderline stability area. Now, which is better? That depends on the care the barrelmakerputs in and the quality of his work. There are truly superb barrels out there made by just about every imaginable process. Just as surely, there are so-so and really lousy barrels by every process as well. On my own competitive guns, I have cut barrels, buttoned barrels and eve a few hammer-forged barrels (a couple of truly superb old Winchester Ultra Match barrels made 30+ years ago), and they all shoot very, very well. Over the past twenty years I've burned up literally hundreds of Hart (buttoned) barrels, and have found them to be outstanding. Wouldn't have kept using them if they weren't. Ditto for Satern (cut), Krieger (cut and buttoned) and a host of others. As I said, it's a question of the care and quality of the maker, not the process.

That said, the actual (true) twist rate of the barrel is only one factor that comes into consideration here. Yes, the physics issues here are hard and fast, but you do see things that don't quite match the results of all that head scratching. The answer there isn't that the rules are wrong, but that there's something (or more likely, several) that wasn't accounted for in the equation. The issues that go into these problems can be staggering, and most of the formulas that allow us to come up with a quick and dirty twist prediction (Greenhill comes to mind) are simplified by overlooking or omitting several of these. It works, but there's wiggle room built into them. That, incidentally, is why they tend to be so conservate (again, like the Greenhill).

J E, no argument intended here, I hope it isn't taken that way. Just trying to shed a little more light on a very complex topic. If you want to get a better view on this, I'd recommend Moder Exterior Ballistics, by the late Bob McCoy. Bob was an aeroballistician with the Army's ballistics lab at Aberdeen Proving Ground, and had the opportunity to test every theory, every change, every new idea that came along for over twenty years on a range that was fully instrumented to learn about every aspect of a bullets flight imaginable. If there's a question, chances are Bob answered it at some point. He was a neat guy, and a very dedicated shooter himself.

If I have left anything out, bring it up and we'll see if we can't figure it out.

Kevin Thomas
Berger Bullets


Thanks for the information. That is some very interesting discussion. I like when I can hear from a manufactures stand point on bullets and rifle tech. Thanks for the comments Kevin.

Tank
 
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