Some thoughts on spine shots or DRT

[Pdvdh]

Lionheart,
I lied earlier, and your example falls outside the 99% where I stated it made no diff if the animals ran a short distance before dropping.

I purposely spined a Mt. Goat once from 75rds so he wouldn't roll into the ravine. Made a perfect shot. He rolled anyhow when his muscles relaxed. I retrieved him. Just a lot of extra effort.

I also head shot a sleeping river otter once from 35yds near the edge of shelf ice adjacent to a deep flowing river in the middle of Alaskan winter. Temp was around -20F. Running my trapline. A large, cold river. Another perfect hit. Yet the animal's body muscles responded in a manner often described as "doing the chicken". There was the slightest of slope on the ice, toward the river. The ice was slicker than you know what. The otter barely, just barely, jerked enough so as to slowly slip into the river. Lost to the river.
In my experiences, one cannot count on DRT in such situations.

Another example. I once brained a blacktail deer at 15yds with a .338 200gr Nosler BT bullet, impact velocity +3,400fps. Solid frontal hit between the eyes. The deer's head resembled a wet burlap bag. Yet I swear, the deer's body left the ground multiple times before coming to rest. Had a guy been within striking distance of the hooves, he could have been injured, or worse, if unlucky.

My advice? Don't count on either spine or head shots to anchor animals, that could otherwise be lost to impossible terrain or waters. Wait till they have a buffer zone of recoverable ground around them.

I've heard multiple first hand stories of goat and sheep killed, but unable to be recovered, in Alaska's mountains. Some are recovered minus horns and entrails after impacting at the base of mountain cliffs. Trophies won and lost...

 

[Lionheart]

Lionheart,
I lied earlier, and your example falls outside the 99% where I stated it made no diff if the animals ran a short distance before dropping.

I purposely spined a Mt. Goat once from 75rds so he wouldn't roll into the ravine. Made a perfect shot. He rolled anyhow when his muscles relaxed. I retrieved him. Just a lot of extra effort.

I also head shot a sleeping river otter once from 35yds near the edge of shelf ice adjacent to a deep flowing river in the middle of Alaskan winter. Temp was around -20F. Running my trapline. A large, cold river. Another perfect hit. Yet the animal's body muscles responded in a manner often described as "doing the chicken". There was the slightest of slope on the ice, toward the river. The ice was slicker than you know what. The otter barely, just barely, jerked enough so as to slowly slip into the river. Lost to the river.
In my experiences, one cannot count on DRT in such situations.

Another example. I once brained a blacktail deer at 15yds with a .338 200gr Nosler BT bullet, impact velocity +3,400fps. Solid frontal hit between the eyes. The deer's head resembled a wet burlap bag. Yet I swear, the deer's body left the ground multiple times before coming to rest. Had a guy been within striking distance of the hooves, he could have been injured, or worse, if unlucky.

My advice? Don't count on either spine or head shots to anchor animals, that could otherwise be lost to impossible terrain or waters. Wait till they have a buffer zone of recoverable ground around them.

I've heard multiple first hand stories of goat and sheep killed, but unable to be recovered, in Alaska's mountains. Some are recovered minus horns and entrails after impacting at the base of mountain cliffs. Trophies won and lost...

I hear you and get your point.
I took a calculated risk and it paid off for me.
But I'm not going to say a spine shot animal is always DRT.
My shot angle was also going into the wheelhouse.
I was able to accomplish my objective...I would do the same thing if the shot presented itself again.
We all have to make choices...and then live with them.

 

[Will Mathieson]

What have you seen? Most animals struggle to escape predation, not pain but flight. The science behind animal pain and lack of it and experience it differently than humans is fact, I don't argue fact. Going off topic mentioning pain as this post is about spinal shots, and yes spinal shots kill quickly with shotgun slugs since other tissue damage is also done. I can't speak for rifle shots as my hunting area only allows shotguns, bows etc.

 

[WildRose]

I cant agree with you. Theres plenty of areas just under the spine a bullet can slip through, or an arrow for that matter. Guys call it the dead zone. I also cant agree that a spine shot is not painful. Theres plenty of tissue damage in front the severe point that will be felt.

The only way such an empty space in can exist in the pleural cavity is if the lungs collapse which only happens when they are punctured allowing air to escape into the cavity.

 

[WildRose]

I don't lose animals shot thru center of ribs with expanding copper monolithics or explosive Bergers. The fact that they don't drop where they stand doesn't mean anything to me, 99% of the time.

If you lose a golf ball sized piece of meat with a shoulder shot, you're shooting full metal jackets that don't tumble, in my experience. I lose more than a golf ball amount of shoulder meat from the shoulder hit with a broadhead.

What about 600yds on out? This Forum does focus on LRH. Why is your aim point preferable at longer yardage?

No, I get pretty much the same pass through with Accubonds, and Interbonds along with the Peregrines.

As for my aimpoint it's preferable because if you're high you take out the spine, low you take out the heart and both lungs, too far back both lungs and too far forward you still get the lungs and possibly the spine/major vessels of the neck.

It just gives the widest possible room for error.

 

[WildRose]

Just to clarify.

You are saying that there can be no pain when a mammal experience sever spinal cord trauma?

I"m saying when you sever the connection to the brain from the sensory nerves there can be no pain. The spinal cord itself cannot sense pain, only the sensory nerves that feed into it do, the rest just transmit the signals. It's like a phone, your phone may still have power but if it's disconnected at the box on your block you'll never be able to get a call out.

 

[WildRose]

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Yes, we do have archery hunters and of course the behind the shoulder shot is the best aim point for them and broad heads do a lot of damage and the tracking job is usually not far with a well placed arrow.....we've already taken nearly a dozen this year during the early archery season.....although we had to call the dogs in for tracking on 3 poor shots and those deer were killed by the dog handler after the dogs bayed the bucks. The problem we've had and I learned many, many years ago is that if a bullet splits the ribs which is highly likely since there's just as much space between the ribs as rib bone, then the bullet just pencils through the lungs, hopefully hitting a rib on the way out to leave a decent blood trail.....if not, it can make for a long day or night.....especially if the man we use with the dogs can't get to us right away(he stays pretty busy). With no blood or even very little blood, it makes for very difficult tracking in the Extremely thick brush......then you throw in fields of knee to waste high buffel grass, it gets even more difficult. Most deer that have been lost have of course been to poor shots but we've recovered more bucks than I could possibly remember days after they were shot only to find the ribs were split and there was no bullet expansion going in.......that's only when the coyotes leave us enough to determine. No, there's Definitely not an easier way for my guides than taking out the Running Gear! Attached are a few pics of bow kills this season.

I've made a lot of money over the years using the GSP's to recover lost deer during archery season. What really sickens me is to go back behind the archery huntings during quail season and see all of the lost deer they never found.

Although at one point in my life I was as good with a bow as just about anyone who ever carried one into the field after seeing that I've never been able to stomach the idea of archery hunting myself.

 

[Deleted member 103481]

That can only be true from that area and down the line, and there is documented evidence in humans of phantom pain perception in lower limbs below a complete spinal cord injury.

It's not actually from those nerves, it's a mistake in the brain but it is still pain.

 

[WildRose]

I would consider that to be bullet failure. I would start compiling a list of bullets and their performance. Then inform your clients of the bullets that you prefer not be used on your hunts and likewise let them know the bullets that you do prefer.

In defense of the unmentioned bullets that did not work. We have learned in our testing that a marginally stable bullet has a much higher likelihood of failing to deform properly. There is a chance that they were not faulty bullets but were just not running with enough rpm's. Most manufactures are fully willing to market marginally stable hunting bullets. Marginally stable will often shoot very accurately but increases the chance of poor terminal performance. I used to hunt with marginal stability because the bullets were very accurate. Saw some questionable performance on game and chalked it up poor bullet quality. After a lot of impact testing our bullets I will never hunt with a bullet that shows less than 1.5sg calculated at sea level again.

Steve

I would just about bet that it has more to do with the marginally stable bullet often not striking the target stright on but at an odd angle that prevents the hydraulics from properly acting on the tips.

 

[WildRose]

That can only be true from that area and down the line, and there is documented evidence in humans of phantom pain perception in lower limbs below a complete spinal cord injury.

It's not actually from those nerves, it's a mistake in the brain but it is still pain.

That pain exists only in the patient's imagination and is due to the loss of signal. The brain keeps trying to wrap itself around why the signals are gone.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

The only way such an empty space in can exist in the pleural cavity is if the lungs collapse which only happens when they are punctured allowing air to escape into the cavity.

Animal lungs do not collapse like human lungs. Animals can still breathe with a hole in the lungs.

Steve

 

[WildRose]

Animal lungs do not collapse like human lungs. Animals can still breathe with a hole in the lungs.

Steve

The anatomy and physiology is the same for both. Human lungs won't always collapse either.

I've opened more than enough carcasses though to see that indeed under the right circumstance animal's lungs will certainly collapse, all it takes is the penetration of air or blood into the pleural cavity. Their lungs are no more glued to the rib cage than ours are.

 

[Will Mathieson]

The brain works with chemicals and electricity, not an imagination of pain, no loss of signal just the electrical signal originates further up the nerve that's responsible for the extremity.

 

[Deleted member 103481]

That pain exists only in the patient's imagination and is due to the loss of signal. The brain keeps trying to wrap itself around why the signals are gone.

Pain is pain is pain

When nerve endings get damaged pain happens. If you don't agree that nerves can be damaged at and upstream of bullet impact or any significant trauma, then we severely disagree. If you dont agree that phantom pain is real pain, then we again disagree.

Either way this is useless