Some thoughts on spine shots or DRT

[WildRose]

This may be common knowledge but I read it and see it in the LR hunting videos enough that I just want to make this post. Spine shots usually do not kill, they paralyze and leave the animal laying on the ground in extreme pain. If you take a shot and the game drops in their tracks like a CNS shot does, get back on the scope and just double check that you did not spine them. If you did, just put one in the vitals to finish them off. I just see too many videos that are obvious spine shots, the animal drops, and the guys start to jump around high fiving while the game is not dead or even close to dead. Just an observation. I think its time we start recognizing CNS shots for what they are most of the time, wounding shots. As LR hunters I think we need to hold our selves to a higher standard.

No, they are not in extreme pain, if the spine is severed there is no pain at all.

The only way the spine shot doesn't kill pretty well instangly is if it's too far back allowing the brain to still remain in contact with the heart and lungs.

I've been making spine shots on game for more than 30 years to the tune of hundreds of animals per year and it is by far the most effective and humane way I have found to accomplish the one shot DRT kill.

 

[WildRose]

It all gets down to REMOVED..

Banned subjects here. You need to edit or delete.

 

[WildRose]

I spined a doe whitetail once and can still remember the blood curtling sounds of her in agony. On one hand I wish it had never happened, for quite obvious reasons. I also know that because I will never forget that event and how it made me feel it changed my perspective on life and hunting more than any other experience in the field.

There is no pain so there can be no agony if the spine is severed.

If she was wailing it was simply out of not understanding what happened.

 

[WildRose]

We all have a duty as a hunter REMOVEDT o kill an animal with a single shot is the goal of every responsible hunter. shot placement is very vital Shoot it again as quickly and safely as you can so it doesn't have to suffer any longer.

The discussion of ethics is a banned subject here as per our Host.

Respect our host, edit or delete so he doesn't have to.

 

[WildRose]

Very much agree with all here. One thing not mentioned, a miss of the spine, high or low. A terrible wound, from which the animal may even survive....but only after a long painful process. Often a near spine hit, appears to be a spine hit....only to have the animal get back to it's feet and escape. memtb

If you miss low the animal is going to have a hole through it's lungs and or heart from which they will not survive more than a few seconds or minutes unless you're trying a neck shot in which case they probabl won't last much longer because severing the windpipe, jugulars, and carotid arteries leads to very rapid death.

 

[WildRose]

That's true a shot that is close enough to the spine to transfer some of that shock will drop an animal in its tracks. But that animal will recover and get up and run. You hear those stories all the time or a guy dropped something in its tracks then he gets there and it's gone. Usually that is just under the spine and too high for lungs. To be honest if I'm hunting elk that's the last thing I want to see is a drop in their tracks. I would always be ready to take a follow-up shot. On the other hand if they run 50 yards and fall over you know it was a good shot

If it's below the spine it's through the lungs. There is no empty space in the pleural cavity.

 

[WildRose]

Where do you aim to hit on the animal when it's greater than 400 yards away?

Just forward of a line between the Elbow and point of the shoulder.

Highest percentage one shot kill shot you can take.

 

[Pdvdh]

Just forward of a line between the Elbow and point of the shoulder.

Highest percentage one shot kill shot you can take.

Only at close range, and then it unnecessarily wastes front shoulder meat. I've never aimed for the front shoulders in my life, with a bow or a rifle, at close range or at long range. This practice began with arrows and recurve bows, where broadheads in the shoulders would often fail to penetrate. Broadheads thru the ribs behind the shoulders killed so quickly I never had cause to change my aiming point.
Questions:
1) What's the benefit of that shoulder shot at close range? Do you believe a bullet aft of the shoulder meat, middle of ribs, isn't lethal on a broadside exposure? Why put an expanding bullet thru both front shoulders on an animal I intend to eat at close range? Never have I come close to losing any large game animal double lunged behind the shoulders. A sharp broadhead placed there will commonly cause death more quickly than a bullet. A bullet placed there and it's time to grab the knife and game bags. Are you concerned about not recovering an animal if front shoulders aren't broken?
2) At long range where perfect bullet placement becomes less easy, why would you not aim in the center of the lethal zone, where some bullet drift in ANY direction - left, right, up, or down - will still strike vital organs.

I've shot over my optical chronograph skyscreens at 1000yds a number of times to record 1000yd bullet velocity. So I'm a capable enough shot. But if I'm going to shoot game at 1000yds, I'm not going to short change my odds for a lethal hit by crowding into the front shoulders. I've seen moose and other game hit too far forward on broadside hits, and it's not a good location for game recovery.

I've killed game with head shots, neck shots, back (spine) shots, shoulder shots, center of rib shots, liver shots, gut shots, and butt shots. I've only taken head or neck shots at close range, to eliminate meat loss. My shoulder, back bone, liver, gut, and butt shots were all center of ribs shots gone astray to one degree or another.

The majority of game animals I've shot have been center of ribs. Even brown bears in heavy cover. I've never lost an animal shot broadside, center of ribs. Not even close, except for the one hit there with a Berger VLD bullet that failed to expand. Fortunately, the next bullet did expand. And I've never loss shoulder meat on any of the game animals shot center of ribs, just back of the shoulder muscles.

I know shoulder shots will kill large game as well (but not better) as a shot thru the ribs behind the shoulder meat. But why waste the shoulder meat at close range, and why shift the aim point to the forward edge of the vitals at long range?

 

[WildRose]

Only at close range, and then it unnecessarily wastes front shoulder meat. I've never aimed for the front shoulders in my life, with a bow or a rifle, at close range or at long range. This practice began with arrows and recurve bows, where broadheads in the shoulders would often fail to penetrate. Broadheads thru the ribs behind the shoulders killed so quickly I never had cause to change my aiming point.
Questions:
1) What's the benefit of that shoulder shot at close range? Do you believe a bullet aft of the shoulder meat, middle of ribs, isn't lethal on a broadside exposure? Why put an expanding bullet thru both front shoulders on an animal I intend to eat at close range? Never have I come close to losing any large game animal double lunged behind the shoulders. A sharp broadhead placed there will commonly cause death more quickly than a bullet. A bullet placed there and it's time to grab the knife and game bags. Are you concerned about not recovering an animal if front shoulders aren't broken?
2) At long range where perfect bullet placement becomes less easy, why would you not aim in the center of the lethal zone, where some bullet drift in ANY direction - left, right, up, or down - will still strike vital organs.

I've shot over my optical chronograph skyscreens at 1000yds a number of times to record 1000yd bullet velocity. So I'm a capable enough shot. But if I'm going to shoot game at 1000yds, I'm not going to short change my odds for a lethal hit by crowding into the front shoulders. I've seen moose and other game hit too far forward on broadside hits, and it's not a good location for game recovery.

I've killed game with head shots, neck shots, back (spine) shots, shoulder shots, center of rib shots, liver shots, gut shots, and butt shots. I've only taken head or neck shots at close range, to eliminate meat loss. My shoulder, back bone, liver, gut, and butt shots were all center of ribs shots gone astray to one degree or another.

The majority of game animals I've shot have been center of ribs. Even brown bears in heavy cover. I've never lost an animal shot broadside, center of ribs. Not even close, except for the one hit there with a Berger VLD bullet that failed to expand. Fortunately, the next bullet did expand. And I've never loss shoulder meat on any of the game animals shot center of ribs, just back of the shoulder muscles.

I know shoulder shots will kill large game as well (but not better) as a shot thru the ribs behind the shoulder meat. But why waste the shoulder meat at close range, and why shift the aim point to the forward edge of the vitals at long range?

I'm losing no more than a golfball sized track through the shoulder when I take the shoulder shot.

If I hit the mid poing between the elbow and shoulder none at all.

Bullet choice makes a huge difference in how much meat you lose and I'd rather lose a small amount of shoulder meat vs losing the whole animal.

 

[Azrael]

How does this vast experience with spine shots during the culling of 1000s of large game animals apply to long range hunting shot selection and placement? It doesn't. At least we've settled that part of the discussion in this Thread.

An animal is an animal, a shot is a shot, placement is placement, and a bullet is a bullet. While there are differences, there are also similarities. There's plenty of dots that can be connected.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

If it's below the spine it's through the lungs. There is no empty space in the pleural cavity.

I cant agree with you. Theres plenty of areas just under the spine a bullet can slip through, or an arrow for that matter. Guys call it the dead zone. I also cant agree that a spine shot is not painful. Theres plenty of tissue damage in front the severe point that will be felt.

 

[Lionheart]

Thanks for thread Alex, good read.
I'll share my story about my only elk as it is germane to this conversation. My first and only elk hunt was in Colorado a decade or so ago. I was hunting alone (my buddy in camp had a muley tag and was filming it) and was hunting out of a wall tent camp set up at 11,000 feet...first week of September.
I had bought a T/c Encore in .45 cal anticipating shots out to 150 yds. Loose powder, no saboted bullets and iron sights were required. After finding a great conical bullet out of the Dakotas and lots of practice I was consistent on a pie plate at 150 yds.
I used test tubes to make up a way to carry extra loads in the field.
Long story short...on the last day after an early season blizzard I had a nice 6x6 satellite bull come across the hillside at 125 yds. Deep breath, squeeze and when the smoke cleared...Bull down! But he was laying with his feet under him and head up so I am reloading as fast as I can.
After reloading I am trying to decide on whether to put another round in him when I look down the mountain and see my buddy and his local guide ...they are about 800 feet down the mountain. I put my binocs up and notice they are pointing up? When I look back...bull is up and staggering down mountain. Holy crap! I take my time and shoot again.
He goes down like he's poleaxed and this time is on his side with head on ground. I look down mountain again and I'm celebrating this time. They are still pointing. ? I look back and the bull is back up and staggering up the mountain this time!
I am out of ammo. I had used my second back-up load at lunch break to verify zero after hunting in heavy brush that morning. I hit about 2.5" low on target and rather than adjusting sights I made a mental note to just hold a little high. And on both of my shots I had held a little high.
So I am holding my gun over my head waving to my buddies to let them know I am out of ammo while watching my bull slowly stagger back the way he came as it gets dark. I even looked down at my knife as I considered going mountain man on this bull lol.
My buddies start up mountain as fast as they can...bull lays down on edge of cliff about 175 yds away. All I can see are his antlers...which are still moving.
Buddies arrive with back-up muzzleloader and we crawl up to about 50yds. Bull is still laying down and facing straight away from us. After a whispered debate with local guide about what to do...I put a shot right up the butthole. Buddy watching shot sees perfect impact.
Bull jumps up and we hear him crashing down backside of mountain. Guide looks at me and says "I know you don't want to hear this"...and I finish sentence..."but we have to wait till tomorrow morning to recover him." Yep. It's dark and there is almost a foot of snow on the ground and it's straight down.
Long night for me.
But to bring this long (sorry) story back on topic...we recovered all three bullets. First two were high just behind shoulder...clipped top of both lungs and spined the bull.
Last bullet went right through the wheel house and lodged inside skin at front of chest.
I acquired great respect that day for the bull elk's toughness...and learned a lesson about bullet placement and next time will not hesitate to put follow-up shot in quickly.
And carry more than two rounds.
I also owned an outdoor television show for a couple of years. It almost made me lose interest in hunting. I don't watch hunting shows. I know too much.

 

[stx]

I'm losing no more than a golfball sized track through the shoulder when I take the shoulder shot.

If I hit the mid poing between the elbow and shoulder none at all.

Bullet choice makes a huge difference in how much meat you lose and I'd rather lose a small amount of shoulder meat vs losing the whole animal.

I completely agree! I've been running guided hunts(www.brushcountryhunts.com) in South Texas for over 30 years, harvesting 90-120 whitetail bucks most years, not including does and hogs and with guided hunters, we ALWAYS try for a broadside shoulder shot taking out both shoulders...."the running gear"! If they don't go down quick, they can be extremely hard to find in the thick South Texas Brush before the coyotes get them! As WildRose said, I'd rather lose a little meat than not be able to find the animal or have the coyotes get to him first. My hunters come from all over the country and pay a lot of money for these hunts, so we eliminate a lot of problems by taking the shoulder shot...shots on these hunts are generally not long range, so shot placement can be precise!

 

[Pdvdh]

I'm losing no more than a golfball sized track through the shoulder when I take the shoulder shot.

If I hit the mid poing between the elbow and shoulder none at all.

Bullet choice makes a huge difference in how much meat you lose and I'd rather lose a small amount of shoulder meat vs losing the whole animal.

I don't lose animals shot thru center of ribs with expanding copper monolithics or explosive Bergers. The fact that they don't drop where they stand doesn't mean anything to me, 99% of the time.

If you lose a golf ball sized piece of meat with a shoulder shot, you're shooting full metal jackets that don't tumble, in my experience. I lose more than a golf ball amount of shoulder meat from the shoulder hit with a broadhead.

What about 600yds on out? This Forum does focus on LRH. Why is your aim point preferable at longer yardage?