Some guidance so I don't blow myself up...

[liltank]

Interesting Tank, This last spring I loaded some 210 Bergers with RL17 in my 300 WSM expecting max to be around 61-61 g (no data available). i shot through my string with no pressure sings and upped the load 1/2 g at a time another couple of grains... still no pressure... Ended up finally seeing pressure at 66 g. At 65.5 g I was getting 2900+ fps with the 210's. These were on warm spring days, temps about 60-70.

How long is your barrel? I have a stock 26" savage ss in a 1:10. I don't think I could have gotten near that load in 60-70 degrees. I think I have a tight bore. I tried the 63.0 grns of H4350 with 208's and 210 bergers and I had pressure signs. Maybe I am not pushing my rifle hard enough in hot weather!!!

Tank

 

[MontanaRifleman]

My barrel is a Sako Finnlight, 24 3/8", 1:11, with a long throat. I loaded the 210's to the lands which left only about 2/3rds of the bearing surface catching the neck. This did leave a little more room in the case, but still, a lot higher charge than I expeted and good velocity.

I'll be doing some temp testing with the 17 in my 25-06 after hunting season.

Every rifle is different, dont push yours too hard

 

[liltank]

I had mine throated long so that the heavy pills would not eat up my casing space, but I think it hurt me. I have it where the 208 is seated about 1/2 way in. I think there is too much space and it is hard to get it to shoot consistently due to the powder flowing in the casing. My speeds are hard to get stabilized. I wish I would have had it throated for a normal SAAMI spec chamber.

Tank

 

[ronedog]

What are those pressure signs you are referring to and how are they noticed?

 

[liltank]

What are those pressure signs you are referring to and how are they noticed?

You'll see your primers start to cave into the firing pin hole, and you can see ejector mark on the head of the casing. You will also notice that when you get to heavier loads, the bolt will start to feel stiff and hard to lift to eject. At that point it is a good idea to back down a grain and call it max. Generally when you reload these casings the primer pockets will be loose as well. If they are hit hard enough with pressure primers when you try to reload them will fall out.

Tank

 

[MontanaRifleman]

What Tank said is right but I'll expand a little. Pressure signs usally include sticky bolt, excessively flattened and/or cratered primers and ejector marks. Ejector marks are a shiney spot near the edge of the case made by the ejector in your bolt face. You can see these signs individually or in any combination. You can also see these signs without excessive pressure, i.e., a sticky bolt can be caused by a dirty chamber or dirty brass or overswelled case. If you're working up a load and your bolt has been functioning smoothly and all of a sudden it gets sticky, it's a good bet that your getting over pressure. Usually a combination of these signs is a good indicator of over pressure. Recognizing pressure signs is fairly straight forward and you get a better feel for it with experience. Also, different rifles with and different bullet/powder combinations may show different pressure signs. Pressuer signs can also be caused by other factors like cleaning residue or lube in your bore. This happened to me recently while I was treating my bore with a product that required "wet" firing it.

Enlarged primer pockets are a definite sign of pressure. If you're primers seat with little or no force, your pockets are getting enlarged and time to think about backing off.

Hope that helps,

Mark

 

[liltank]

Caution when trying to read pressure signs looking at primers. Federal primers are inherently the softest of primers due to its metal cup. You will see the primers to show pressure much sooner than the rifle is capable of. CCI primers are said to be harder and therefore handle higher pressures without showing any indication of overpressure. Like Montana said, it take some time to get use to reading the signs of overpressure and learning what they are.

Tank

 

[ronedog]

tank and montanrifleman, thanks for your help and advice. I'll head out and start working on fine tuning my rounds over the next few months and chime in as I have questions. your tips have really been a help for me. Thanks again.

 

[liltank]

tank and montanrifleman, thanks for your help and advice. I'll head out and start working on fine tuning my rounds over the next few months and chime in as I have questions. your tips have really been a help for me. Thanks again.

No problem, just PM me if you need anything. Make sure you put pics up of your rifle and targets so we can see the progress.

Tank

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Hope your load work goes well, keep us posted.

Mark

 

[flyin lizard]

This is one of the best "help"threads that I have seen in a while, nice job M T R and L T..
Welcome to LRH ronedog..

 

[ronedog]

Hey guys, thanks again for all your help. Since I last posted, I have read the ABC's of Reloading as well as the Modern Reloading 2nd Edition by Richard Lee, and most of my reloading equipment has arrived.

I've been setting things up and learning the process a bit more and have run into a couple of clarification questions I have. first off, let me explain my setup in hopes that will help you give me some appropriate advice. I decided to start off with Hodgdon's H4350, Berger 185VLD, Winchester Brass, CCI primer (200), Lee Dies (Full Size, Bullet Seater, Crimper) & lee press in my Ruger 30-06, which according to the charts should shoot around 2700fps, with 57grains of powder as the maximum load. This would place my bullet somewhere around 800yds at 1000ft-lbs of energy (assuming I've learned something, this is my maximum shooting distance, provided that i'm shooting a "maximum load" which I probably will settle somewhere in between the starting load and the maximum load, but in "concept" do I have this "Max Distance for my gun" part correct?

I will begin working my loads up starting with the recommended "starting load" of 52 grains (From Hodgdons site) and go up from there.

The data in the books didn't have data on the Berger bullet, and I couldn't find any on the web, so I'm just a bit hesitant pouring powder into the cases...I like to use someone elses load that has been proven...perhaps I'll have to call berger and see if they have that data hidden away and will let me see it.

Here's one problem the books were not too clear for me on. I have seated a bullet in to an "unprimed" and "uncharged" case to help me learn how close to the riflings I can get my bullet to be. The Lee book shows the 30-06 "Jacketed bullet" for 185 grains should be somewhere around 3.189 and 3.340 OAL depending on the powder used. After reading I decided I would like to get my bullet as close to the riflings as I could for accuracy, now if I understand something wrong here please guide me, but I read that I could be more accurate by getting the bullet as close to the riflings as possible without actually touching the riflings. In order to figure this out a friend suggested I mark the tips of the bullet with a black magic marker and load a bullet into the chamber and then work the bullet back out until it is just off of the riflings (not touching, but as close as possible).

When I tried this here is what I did. I loaded a bullet into a case that measured 3.471 OAL to begin with. I didn't crimp the bullet so it would slide down the mouth better. I then loaded the bullet into the chamber and closed the bolt action completely. Then I pulled the cartridge back out, careful not to mess with the markings. I found no markings on the bullet, but noticed the bulled had been pushed down the case mouth a bit. I paid attention when I was chambering the cartridge and didn't feel any noticible resistance, so I think the bullet slid down the mouth without too much effort. I then measured the OAL of the cartridge at that point and it srhunk down to 3.340" OAL. So, is this the "MAX" OAL I should measure my bullets to be at? Is there other tools or methods of doing this that I should be using?

I plan on using the Lee crimper to crimp the bullets....based on my readings it sounds like this would be better to do since I'll be using these bullets for hunting, but in your experience is crimping a good or bad idea for my setup?

My end goal is to be able to shoot Deer, Antelope and elk around 500-800 yds with this setup and I hunt in temperature extremes where it could be in single digits one week, then the next it could be as high as 80 degrees, which is one reason I decided to try the H4350.

Also, what do you think about the Hornady Concentricity Guage (Hornady Lock-N-Load Ammunition Concentricity Gage - MidwayUSA), the one that will correct bullet runout? I thought about using this to correct my bullets, just prior to crimping the bullet...Is this is something you would recommend, or are there other tools to do this better?

Thanks for the help.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Ronedog, cool that things are coming together. Lee dies wouldn't be my first choice, but use them and see how they work for you. I dont have a concentricity gauge but it's a very useful tool and on my list. I will be getting a Sinclair. If the Lee dies aren't getting your necks and bullets concentric enough, get some Redding dies. H4350 is a good stable powder that produces about average velocities. RL17 will get you more speed but I'm not sure how temp stable it is.

On figuring out lands seating depth, I take a case and seat a bullet in it then pop it out with a kinetice bullet puller and repeat the process until the neck is stretched far enougth that I can manually insert the bullet with a little force with just enough neck tension so the neck holds the bullet and not so little that it slides up and down loosely. Other guys like cutting a couple of slits in the neck to do this. I then load the case with bullet seated long into the chamber, then slowley close the bolt on it. Then I slowley and carefully open the bolt and pulll the bullet out and measure. I do this several times for consistancy. If your Ruger is a CRF, you may not be able to this. Also, sometimes bullets will show marks from the lands and sometimes they wont.

In my Sako 300 WSM, the throat is chambered long and to seat a bullet to the lands leaves the bearing surface of the bullet only catching 2/3rds of the neck with a 210 Berger. This would not work in my rifle with a 185 Berger. I would have to seat the bullet back off the lands far enough to get a good bite on the neck. There is a sticky in the "Rifles, Bullets, Barrles and Ballistics forum on how to seat the Bergers for accuracy.

I have never crimped hunting bullets and have never had a problem. You will get some different opinions on this but most guys will not crimp their bullets, especially for precision LR loads. I size my case with a bushing die that allows for .0015" neck tension on my seated bullets. Some will say that's not enough for hunting bullets, but so far no problems here. I do not and will not load my bullets "into" the lands.

On your effective range. I do not look at energy. 1000 ftlbs is roughly a good number for deer size animals, but depending on the bullet and cartridge you can go lower for deer/antelope IMO. However.... in the case of the 30 cal 185 VLD, 1000 ftlbs is too low because you end up with a velocity of about 1560 fps which is not enough for expansion of that bullet, unless you hit some bone to initiate expansion. Bergers and most bullets expand @ 1800 fps. Out of your .06 @ 2700 fps and 3000' elevation, your max effective range is about 650 yds.

Hope that helped and keep us posted on progress

Mark

 

[liltank]

Yep, never crimped a bullet a day in my life. I'm just lazy and like to take as few as steps as possible. From what I understand, crimping is only really necessary for extremely high powered rifle such as the Nitro series calibers, and straight wall casing such as pistol calibers that have no neck.

M.R. is right on with everything I do. I even use to use a candle to carbon the tip of the bullet and try and find the lands (don't do this anymore). I now have a Lock-N-Load gauge by Hornady. Works really well for finding my overall length. I have modified cases for my .308 Win. and my 300WSM.

Another way to measure you OAL for a specific bullet is to do the following. Go to the hardware store and buy two nut s that will fit loosely over your cleaning rod. Use a cleaning jag and remove the tit that holds the patch. Drill and tap the nuts on of the flats so that you can tread a thumb screw of some type to tighten against the cleaning rod.

First close your bolt. Slide the cleaning rod down the muzzle and hold it tight against the bolt face and tighten the top nut. pull it back enough to clear the chamber.

Place the bullet you want to use into the chamber so that it is tight in the lands. Use a piece dowel rod and rubber bands to hold the bullet in the lands. Slide the cleaning rod down a second time gently touching the nose of the bullet. Tighten the bottom nut. Pull it out and measure between the two nuts with calipers. This should give you your OAL length for that particular bullet. Do this 3 or 4 times for length consistency. Now you can back it off how ever far from the lands you would like.

If I could figure out how to put pics in I would show you the steps.

Tank