Some guidance so I don't blow myself up...

[liltank]

If you know your conditions you can stock pile all you want. Like I said, if you write down your information when shooting and doing load development then you will see a pattern of how to load for any powder at any given condition. If you can do some load development for temperatures in the 80's write it down what you used and how many grains. Write down temp, load, primer, humidity, velocity and group size.

Then if you get a chance to shoot at single digit temps, attempt shooting your loads and see what it does. It may be fine and you will not have to adjust much, maybe change your zero for slower velocity. Chances are though, the load you put together for 85 degrees will not work quite as well at 10 degrees. Ideally you want to know exactly how it is going to perform for its given conditions. That is why US snipers write down every shot including temp, humidity, wind direction, wind speed, and elevation. Elevation is also a very important factor. The higher you go up the less elevation in your scope you will need to hit your intended target. Thinner air results in less drag. The more you can shoot and develop for your conditions the more effective you will be as a marksmen.

So keeping track of all these conditions will help to develop good loads. As far as the age of a load, as long as there is no corrosion on the casings and lead you can shoot away. You have to be careful with other people loads in your rifle. What worked in their rifle may not work in yours. Storage and care of handling said loads determines their accuracy and ability to fire. If they draw in humidity into the powder then the loads will not be near as potent as a fresh load. The inaccuracy your friend experienced may have been due to poor rifle maintenance and loads developed for a rifle that he did not use. Each rifle is different and will shoot hand loads differently. I generally will not shoot another persons hand loads for safety. If I know the person and they developed the load for my rifle then I don't have a problem or the load is a load that I know is safe for my rifle. There are guys using ammo from the Korean War, Vietnam and WWII because it was surplus from the wars and fit their rifles. It is all in care of handling.

Tank

 

[liltank]

ronedog,

Tank summed it up pretty well. I'll add that the two biggest things in LR shooting besides the obvious accuracy/consistancy, are BC and velocity. That's what gets you farther down range with more enrgy/momentum and bucks wind. But like Tank mentioned, sometimes there are tradeoffs. His report on RL17's temp sensitivity has me a little concerned. We get some extreme swings in temps here in MT which would have an effect on the bullet's performance at longer ranges. RL 22 and 25 usually produce good velocities but they are very temp sensitive. The Hodgdon Etreme powders are less temp sensitive.

If you're looking for 1K shooting, you should be striving for sub .5 MOA accuracy. I am finding that my MOA accuracy gets slightly better at 300 and 400 yds than 100yds. You should be testing your accuracy at 300 yds and farther because bullets sometimes take a little while to "go to sleep" which referes to their pitch and yaw. You should be looking for 1" - 1 1/2" groups @ 300 yds and 1 1/2" - 2" groups @ 400 yds.

Mark

RL15 is pretty temperature finicky too. I think the Alliant powders are inherently temperature sensitive. I have noticed with both the 15 and 17 that more than 20 degrees will result in needing a load change.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

RL15 is pretty temperature finicky too. I think the Alliant powders are inherently temperature sensitive. I have noticed with both the 15 and 17 that more than 20 degrees will result in needing a load change.

They "advertise" 17 to be stable 20 degrees wont cut it for me.

 

[roninflag]

you don't say where you are hunting deer and elk. also i don't think he will know the speed of his load or es because no chrono. re-19 and wlrm primer and a 168 bal silver tip for the 300 wsm. lapua brass and 165 to 175 for the 30-06. my 30-06 like 50.5 of varget( which is not temp sensitive) and 165 or 168. 210m or br-2 primer. i was unable to get the accuracy with i-4350 in my gun/s.

 

[liltank]

Like MR stated, Hodgdon powders and I believe IMR powders are a little more stable powders for temperature. I have experienced some temp issues with H1000 and ball powders such as Winchester powders and I know for a fact that old reliable H380 is temp sensitive. I am currently using H335 for my .308 which seems to be holding pretty good so far. Man you should see the fireball that comes out of my 18" barrel with H335. Hope my son doesn't shoot anything in low light.

Tank

 

[MontanaRifleman]

i don't think he will know the speed of his load or es because no chrono.

Which brings up another point. I don't totally trust my chrono. I got a second one (Chrony Alpha) and put it back to back with my old Prochrony and reading varried anywhere from 5-50 fps. The Prochrony always read higher. I have also seen both chrony's give different ranges as lighting changes, especially in shadows. Granted, these aren't the best chrony's on the market but I think the best way guage consistancy is with shooting and ladder testing or the verticle offsets of groups at different ranges.

 

[liltank]

Yeah we have two different chrony's that read predictably different. Mine reads on avg. 30fps slower than my cousins. His reads faster and I think is more likely the more accurate. Setting my tables to my readings always shoot high telling me that it is not reading fast enough. Mine up until this last trip to the range read more consistently. This last time out, my cousins read consistently with higher speeds and provided much better data. We figured out that his lapua is maxed out with speed at 92.2 grns of H1000 but can shoot a lower ES with 93.2 but the speed avg is the same. He gets 11fps spread with the lighter load and only a 6fps spread with the heavier. I found mine to be all over the place with 100fps spread and my speeds dropped way off. That was with virgin brass though.

Tank

 

[ronedog]

Guys, thanks for your input. This is all very good info for me.

Liltank, "virgin brass"? Does this mean that the brass has to be broken in as well, before groups really get honed in? If so, how many times does brass usually have to be shot and processed before you see better results? I shot the winchester silvertip BT this year and kept all the brass. I've got a small bucket load of remington core lokt brass from last year as well. All the brass has been shot once. From your experience, how many times will I be able to reuse brass before it starts to have problems? Can I reload with this brass, or am I better off buying brand new and reloading with that?

 

[liltank]

Guys, thanks for your input. This is all very good info for me.

Liltank, "virgin brass"? Does this mean that the brass has to be broken in as well, before groups really get honed in? If so, how many times does brass usually have to be shot and processed before you see better results? I shot the winchester silvertip BT this year and kept all the brass. I've got a small bucket load of remington core lokt brass from last year as well. All the brass has been shot once. From your experience, how many times will I be able to reuse brass before it starts to have problems? Can I reload with this brass, or am I better off buying brand new and reloading with that?

What I am referring to is brass that has never been loaded or fired. When you load any brass for the first time or use factory loaded ammo I consider it virgin brass and needs to fire formed. Unfired brass can cause pressure differences and large speed fluctuation. This may account for my extreme spreads being so high and lack of accuracy. But I did notice that the pressure was not there like in the original loads on brass that had been fired multiple times.

Every chamber is different. When a new round is fired in a chamber the brass takes the form of that chamber (fire forming). This blows out the necks and shoulders to duplicate the chamber in your rifle. It is good practice to use a neck sizing die to re-size with following your first shot. All your pressures in your first load and second firing with the same brass then will hold better pressures, because theoretically all things are equal. Your first firing is all that is needed to pull in accuracy.

You don't want to full length size anymore than you have to, to keep from over working your brass. By overworking the brass it will start to fail after it reaches a point. The brass will work harden like any other metal when flexed back and fourth to much causing the necks and shoulders to crack. This is something that should be looked for after every firing to ensure safety and consistent reloads.
The caliber determines how long the brass will last. Some of the really heavy calibers will only last for 3 to 4 loads depending how hot you make the loads. A caliber like the .308 can last as long as you take care of the brass. I currently have about 20 loads on my 308 Winny (Norma brass) and about 10 to 15 on my 300WSM (Winchester brass).

There is a process whereby you use a propane torch to add longevity to the brass. You heat the neck to a dual red and quench it in water. This process is called annealing. It removes the stress from the metal allowing it to be reworked over and over. This process also allows for the necks to have equal pressure on all sides allowing the bullet to be released evenly from the neck. I find with my 300WSM I need to anneal about every 2nd to 3rd firing for good accuracy.

As far as the brass you currently own, once fired is good to reload as long as it was fired from your rifle and your chamber. It is good practice to not use others brass because the chamber may be bigger than yours causing feeding problems. You should try and keep track of how many times you load it for consistency. I don't trouble my self to much with counting reloads. I could be off with my numbers above, but some guys like my cousin counts for every time he has loaded the same brass.

Hope this helps. A little more info than you asked for, but any little bit helps.

Tank

 

[ronedog]

Yeah, this helps. I don't have any friends that reload, but everyone I talk to says they wish they did. I appreciate the "too much information" attitude, it's very helpful for people like me to gain a better grasp on this. I'm certainly going to print out this thread and then go to the reloading table and the field and begin the process.

What do you think about using turrets, vs. those reticles with the drops already calculated? I had a hunting buddy that looked at my scope and said I ought to put one of those turrets on it like his. At the time I had no clue what he was talking about (last year), but I've been reading and finally learned what a turret was for. However, I thought you could just buy any turret and then put it on my scope, as long as the scope had the screws it could mount on to (apparantly, my hunting buddy said my scope was set up to receive a turret), but after sending a question to the BOTW guys they said their turret is a custom built turret for your load and gun, but they made it sound like they only would do it on their huskemaw with their turret. My Scope is a simmons and it would be nice to dial in my yardage rather than estimating and holding high. Any suggestions?

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Yeah, this helps. I don't have any friends that reload, but everyone I talk to says they wish they did. I appreciate the "too much information" attitude, it's very helpful for people like me to gain a better grasp on this. I'm certainly going to print out this thread and then go to the reloading table and the field and begin the process.

What do you think about using turrets, vs. those reticles with the drops already calculated? I had a hunting buddy that looked at my scope and said I ought to put one of those turrets on it like his. At the time I had no clue what he was talking about (last year), but I've been reading and finally learned what a turret was for. However, I thought you could just buy any turret and then put it on my scope, as long as the scope had the screws it could mount on to (apparantly, my hunting buddy said my scope was set up to receive a turret), but after sending a question to the BOTW guys they said their turret is a custom built turret for your load and gun, but they made it sound like they only would do it on their huskemaw with their turret. My Scope is a simmons and it would be nice to dial in my yardage rather than estimating and holding high. Any suggestions?

Tank had a lot of good stuff in his post and until recently I thought the same way he did about neck sizing only. There are a lot of differnt opinions on this and you should take some time a search through the articles and threads in these forums. There is a ton of very good informatuion and different perspectives. Anyway, I now body size and neck size (two different steps) for each reload. I back the body die off neough so it barely sizes the case body to barely fir the chamber for minimal work on the brass and minmal space between the case and chamber, in othor words a tight fit. I do this each time for consistancy because at some point, if you neck size only, the brass will swell enough from firng it will not chamber anymore, so you have to do a body size or FL size at that point which gives you a differnt case from the previous firing. This wont hurt case life because it's the necks and primer pockets that usually go first. In the neck sizing process, I only partial neck size, leaving a slight donut around the base of the neck. This helps align the case neck and bullet concentrically with the throat and bore.

If you're going to be shooting more than 400 yds, turrets are a good way to go and with more extreme ranges 600-1000 they are almost a must. For LR shooting you would do well to have both turrets and a reticle graduted in MOA or Mil dots. I like MOA because it's very close to inches and makes range work very easy. Stay away from the BDC type reticles because chances are they wont fit your bullets trajectory. The BDC type turrets, like BOTW, can make LR shooting a lot quicker and easier but they do have their limitations because they are set for one load at one elevation and temperature and level shooting. For shooting out to 600-700 yds they are usually close enough when things change a little, but beyond that you're going to have to do some mental gymnastics if things change much on you. You should wait a while on that until you have a little better understanding and have a good load worked up. In the mean time get a standard MOA or Milrad turret. You will want one anyway with the BDC turret if you try a different load, etc. They swap out pretty quick. There are a few outfits that make them including Kenton Ind...

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To use turrets, you must have a scope that has precise, accurate and repeatable tracking. If it doesn't, it's just not going to work.

Read up in the forums here on all the options scopes etc.

Good shooting,

Mark

 

[liltank]

+1 for the turrets. I have tried using mil dots and have failed miserably several times. It takes some practice getting use to the hold overs and knowing the exact drop of each dot. My current set up is a target dot Nikon Buckmaster with target turrets and side focus. This is one of the best scopes for the money in my opinion. I like having the ability to turn them up and down for a more precise shooting experience.

As far as the full length sizing is concerned, Montana brings up some good points. I currently have to full body size with a body die and neck size the same way he does. For some reason I cannot just neck size on my 300, but I can with my 308. He is right that after a few reloads you will have to full length size anyway. Sorry for not putting that in there and thanks Mark for the reminder!

A couple steps we have left out of the case prep is trimming and deburring. Primer pockets are generally punched which leaves a burr on the inside of the flash hole. It is good practice when prepping new brass to take the time to clean this burr out. Brass such as Lapua and Nosler custom drill the flash holes making this step unnecessary. My Norma brass did need to be deburred though.

You should also look into a case length trimmer. Hornady makes a decent one that you can turn by hand and RCBS makes a power trimmer. You want to trim all of your casings to the same length. This again promotes consistency necessary for accuracy at long range. You would not see much of a difference at close range, but when you really start reaching out is where that will happen. This will also help in keeping your pressures steady. Again you will need an inside and outside chamfering tool to eliminate the burr in the neck that comes with trimming.

It is relatively expensive getting started, but the rewards of accuracy and being able to shoot consistently for less money make it worth the initial expense.

Tank

 

[liltank]

Range update in the spirit of learning about powders and the effects of temperature. I went to the range today for some pressure testing. Now my warm weather load (70-90 degrees) is a 200grn. SMK with 61.5 grns of RL17. This produced .75" groups at 100yrds with a velocity of 2950.

Today I started at 59.5 grns of RL17 with a 208grn Hornady A-Max. The temperature at the range is between 40 and 45 degrees. I moved in half grain increments. I only went to 63.0 grains thinking this would far exceed my maximum with a heavier bullet. I ran out of tests bullets with little to no pressure signs. I went home and put together more starting at 63.5grns to 66.0grns in half grain increments. This time I pulled out the chronograph. I duplicated and exceeded my summer velocities using a heavier bullet. My max speed when i started getting ejector marks is around 3060fps. I am going to load a batch at 64.0, 64.5, and 65.0 grains. 65.5 and 66.0 grains produced a heavy bolt lift and ejector marks.

With a drop of 40 degrees avg. I am able to increase my loads by 3 to 4 grains. In the summer 62grns is my max and had poor performance. I have the bullet set .010" off the lands.

Tank

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Interesting Tank, This last spring I loaded some 210 Bergers with RL17 in my 300 WSM expecting max to be around 61-61 g (no data available). i shot through my string with no pressure sings and upped the load 1/2 g at a time another couple of grains... still no pressure... Ended up finally seeing pressure at 66 g. At 65.5 g I was getting 2900+ fps with the 210's. These were on warm spring days, temps about 60-70.