solid copper bullet performance

[MontanaRifleman]

That would be amazing velocity for a 230. I have not heard of many getting that from a 200g AB with that barrel length. Given this kind of performance with the 230 berger you should be able to run the 177 up around 3700fps.

The faster you push the GS the better the bc should be. As it slows it will degrade. When you get up over 3500 fps this should be so.

If the Berger sheds half it's weight in the first few inches you are left with 115g to finish the job. VS 142g in the GS at 80% retention. Momentum is definitely on the side of the GS.

Steve

There is a member getting close to 3250 in a 32" non-nitrided barrel with RL33 and the 230's. RL33 is the big kicker here. It's a very slow powder and my 27" barrel may not take advantage of it as well as a 32" barrel. Time will tell as soon as I get it back together from nitriding.

33 is going to be too slow for the 177's, so that is why the discrepancy in my "predicted" velocities.

At slower velocities, the Berger will retain more of its mass. How much I don't know. But I do know it will arrive at the target with close to 30% more mass than the 177's. As far as bullet integrity goes, the GS bullet will have an advantage in momentum but the mass shed by the Berger will also do some damage.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

There is a member getting close to 3250 in a 32" non-nitrided barrel with RL33 and the 230's. RL33 is the big kicker here. It's a very slow powder and my 27" barrel may not take advantage of it as well as a 32" barrel. Time will tell as soon as I get it back together from nitriding.

33 is going to be too slow for the 177's, so that is why the discrepancy in my "predicted" velocities.

At slower velocities, the Berger will retain more of its mass. How much I don't know. But I do know it will arrive at the target with close to 30% more mass than the 177's. As far as bullet integrity goes, the GS bullet will have an advantage in momentum but the mass shed by the Berger will also do some damage.

I would expect 30-50 fps per inch.

Steve

 

[Broz]

I have done some LR BC work, and I don't believe you can count on a bullet with higher velocity getting higher BC all of the time. Some tests actually show more of a roller coaster effect and I have seen the 300 Berger gain BC with slowed velocity down range. I worked extensively with this bullet and was talking with Bryan litz on it as I worked on some stepped Bc's.

The other thing I can offer about the 230 at many distances with elk is I would bet against it loosing any where near 50% in the first few inches. The last cow we shot with one was at 180 yards and it all went out the other side of her. I cant remember a 230 OTM not exiting an elk and we have taken several with them as well as some bulls. This was from a 300 win at 2775 fps. MV. So using the Target with a thicker jacket I would count on many exits if impact velocity is 3000 or under.

On all the 300 wins, 30-378's, 30-338 LM's and 300 RUMs I have worked with using mostly H-1000 I would expect 20 ~30 fps per inch past 28" of tube length.

Jeff

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I have done some LR BC work, and I don't believe you can count on a bullet with higher velocity getting higher BC all of the time. Some tests actually show more of a roller coaster effect and I have seen the 300 Berger gain BC with slowed velocity down range. I worked extensively with this bullet and was talking with Bryan litz on it as I worked on some stepped Bc's.

The other thing I can offer about the 230 at many distances with elk is I would bet against it loosing any where near 50% in the first few inches. The last cow we shot with one was at 180 yards and it all went out the other side of her. I cant remember a 230 OTM not exiting an elk and we have taken several with them as well as some bulls. This was from a 300 win at 2775 fps. MV. So using the Target with a thicker jacket I would count on many exits if impact velocity is 3000 or under.

On all the 300 wins, 30-378's, 30-338 LM's and 300 RUMs I have worked with using mostly H-1000 I would expect 20 ~30 fps per inch past 28" of tube length.

Jeff

So the moose hunter who had a tough go with the 250g .338 berger should have chosen a .308 caliber rifle and a 230g berger to hunt moose with?

Steve

 

[Broz]

So the moose hunter who had a tough go with the 250g .338 berger should have chosen a .308 caliber rifle and a 230g berger to hunt moose with?

Steve

I am not saying that Steve, but you should know, or maybe not? That all bullets of the same design do not act the same from different calibers or weights. I have only a little experience with 250's in 338's. But I have extensive field data and supported terminal performance data for the 300 Berger OTM and the 230 Berger OTM on elk at all distances. I would have no problem at all using either to fill my elk tag if I am lucky enough to draw one.

The facts are in the 250 thread that the selected bullet did not perform to the standards of the guide , the shooter or the hand loader. But they did kill the bull that was shot in the rear, after 3 shots. Many Moose take more than one shot than there are killed with one. So how much of a "tough go" was it?

I feel that the solids used up close are a good combination. And with that rear end shot moose a solid would definatly have been a better choice. But I would not want to use solids and I don't for long range hunting. I use to use solids, but after a few of my own wrecks and tracking a few from guys I was helping, I switched to a bullet that works better for me.

I am not looking to argue, maybe you are? I only offered real world experience from what I have done, with one of the bullets in the conversation. First hand and factual data and supported. Take it or leave it my friend.

Jeff

 

[MontanaRifleman]

So the moose hunter who had a tough go with the 250g .338 berger should have chosen a .308 caliber rifle and a 230g berger to hunt moose with?

Steve

Actually, he might have done better withe 308 230. It has a greater SD and probably structurally more sound.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Actually, he might have done better withe 308 230. It has a greater SD and probably structurally more sound.

I am a little frustrated here so bare with me. That guy was chided by many here for incorrectly using the 250 g berger hunting bullet on moose. How is a hunter supposed to know which berger hunting bullets are structurally more sound?

Steve

 

[Broz]

Actually, he might have done better withe 308 230. It has a greater SD and probably structurally more sound.

I can not say for sure Mark, but from what I know about the 230's, and other fragmenting bullets, it would have been a better choice for me.

In my 300 /230 OTM terminal performance thread there are many elk with pass throughs and a nice exit hole from the 230's at many different distances. They seem to hold up pretty darn good up close and far away from what I see. But I have never sent one up a moose's *** either.

Jeff

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I can not say for sure Mark, but from what I know about the 230's, and other fragmenting bullets, it would have been a better choice for me.

In my 300 /230 OTM terminal performance thread there are many elk with pass throughs and a nice exit hole from the 230's at many different distances. They seem to hold up pretty darn good up close and far away from what I see. But I have never sent one up a moose's *** either.

Jeff

I believe the shot was behind ribs to the far shoulder. Correct me if I am wrong.

Steve

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I am a little frustrated here so bare with me. That guy was chided by many here for incorrectly using the 250 g berger hunting bullet on moose. How is a hunter supposed to know which berger hunting bullets are structurally more sound?

Steve

As I mentioned in the other thread, I would never have guessed the 250 bullet to come apart like that. For me it's a learning experience and I don't lay "fault" with the chooser of the bullet other than "My" way of thinking is always go with the heavier bullet in big guns or heaviest practical for the cartridge.

I also agree that Berger, or any other bullet maker should provide guidance in the use and limitations of their bullets.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Re: Long Range thick skin bullets! Bergers failed

Ok first and second shot were behind the ribs on a hard quartering away shot bullets entered had approx eight inches of penetration then failed no bones hit. Bullets did not make it to the diaphragm....


Steve

 

[Broz]

I am a little frustrated here so bare with me. That guy was chided by many here for incorrectly using the 250 g berger hunting bullet on moose. How is a hunter supposed to know which berger hunting bullets are structurally more sound?

Steve

Well, if you really care? I would start by reading what others that use the bullet have posted and supported with real data. It has been offered many times by many guys using Bergers successfully for hunting to use "large weight for caliber offerings" I have posted this over and over stating that leaves the front portion to fragment off and a good chunk to carry on. I truly believe this to be the key. You will not find any post from me where I killed anything with a 180 or a 190 Berger in a 300 win. Nor will you find where I have taken any game with a 250 Berger from a 338. Not a good recipe in my book. To me velocity is very nice and I like it, but it is not the most important thing to me. What you will find is where I have posted many many kills and terminal damage photos from heavy Bergers. This is so a reader can make up his own mind. If you don't like what you see, don't use them.

I have a good friend that just took an elk yesterday at 1600 yards with a 338 Lapua AI I recently put together. This was his first hunting experience after taking my long range class. He is gathering terminal performance photo's and wound channel length for me now. That will be the first info I will have for that far on a 300 Berger elite hunter. So far all I know is 1/2 the jacket in cup form was found on the far side next to an exit. When I get all the data , and if it is supported well, I will post it. I feel this may be good data for guys pushing the envelope with large 338's.

Jeff

 

[Broz]

Re: Long Range thick skin bullets! Bergers failed

Ok first and second shot were behind the ribs on a hard quartering away shot bullets entered had approx eight inches of penetration then failed no bones hit. Bullets did not make it to the diaphragm....


Steve

Ok I stand corrected. But with no pictures to see for our selves a "hard quartering away" shot behind the ribs could be rear quarters, or not? My bad and I appologise to my post on that.

Jeff

 

[Broz]

Good conversation guys but I have to go. Gotta saddle up and push some cows down from the mountain pasture this afternoon.

Jeff