Scope field evaluations on rokslide

[koja]

#1) I had never had an issue with Leupold, still have 2, Vari-X III 6.5 - 20 x 50mm on my custom Model 70 243 coyote rig, an old M1 4.5 - 14 x 50mm on a Savage 112 25'06 LSSFV, rifle alone weighs over 10lbs. Neither has given me issues across multiple rifles since the day I bought both new. A couple of years ago, I had 3 consecutive brand new out of the box Leupold VX3/VX3-HD fail, reticle wouldn't move or they failed to retain zero. I have since quit Leupold altogether.

#2) The following was early on just after the ELD bullets were released. I have been present during or experienced ELD-X failures. We had bullets pencil thru deer, from 80yds to well over 300yds, multiple shots on some animals and multiple failures to expand. We have also experienced quite the opposite, bullets fragmenting on impact, creating craters, massive damage to near side and in one case, the doe shot at over 300yds was paralyzed but very much alive when we found her in the high grass well over 45 minutes later requiring a follow up round to the noggin.

Also heard first hand reports from close friends that had multiple failures with the ELD-X on elk, these are guys I have hunted with for decades. 7 pencil holes in one elk at reasonable distances and multiple holes in another, same pencil holes. Both Elk were recovered and they all 3 were flabbergasted at the complete failure to expand.

These were typical results of the early years of the ELD bullets, I think many here experienced the same results early on. While they were very accurate, the result afterwards was the problem.

While Hornady has made adjustments to their ELD bullets and many have since reported good results with the latest formula of ELD bullets. For me, I still refuse to use them.

 

[cooperjd]

Can't do that though, then how would he be able to rig it for his nightforce scope to win?

The bias is strong in him.
So strong it's a huge turn off to some people.
I'll never ever buy a nightmare scope, just because of the video history of his cool aid drinking.

If you listen to Form discussing his personal opinions (shoot2hunt podcast, episode 34, 05-SEP-23), his personal FAVORITE scope is a LEUPOLD. the features, clarity, weight, etc... are great. The problem however, is that he stated simply that he cannot use them because they are not reliable.

 

[Barehandlineman11]

I mean liking leupold is one thing. Thinking its in same playing field as atacr is just denial. Like saying vortex binos are as good as nl pures. Just simply not

 

[bultinkle]

Funny enough I recall Pierce coming on here not to long ago and mentioning zco failures and recommending a NF if someone needed to trust their scope and don't recall anyone was willing to bow up on him and tell him he was wrong.


People want to argue instead of listen and take in info. You don't need to agree to listen and be appreciative that someone doing scope reviews cares about zero retention, afaik he's the only person doing it.

Hell Frank at snipershide quit doing tracking logs and publishing them, Alex wheeler quit with the recoil retention.

Screw it, let's attack all of them until they stop trying to make things better and we can go back to smacking our leupold with a screwdriver and crossing our fingers when we adjust windage

 

[Paladin300]

I mean liking leupold is one thing. Thinking its in same playing field as atacr is just denial. Like saying vortex binos are as good as nl pures. Just simply not

If your comparing apples to apples it would look like this. 7-35 Leupold (most used scope for 2 mile) Mark V. In the the 5-25 range NF Atacr (I would say this is the best bang for your buck). The 7-35 Leupold is a completely different animal than the smaller versions and I would say better than the big Atacr and just as tough. The Mark 6s and 8s are comparable as well but the glass is not as good. In the 3-15/20 range I would say the ZCO hands down is the best money can buy. Depending on the application those three are the best in their size classes. All of them are $3500 and up. You get what you pay for. The NF SHV and NXS don't hold a candle to the VX5s and 6s. That said the NX8 is comparable to the VX5/6. The Atacr is better than all of the above and better than the 5-25 and smaller Mark 5s but the Big 5 in my opinion tops the big Atacr. All of this is opinion but based on 40 years of competition, hunting and tactical use experience. To say the Atacr is some how better than the 7-35 Lupy would in my opinion be a little naive but you are correct that the 5-25 Atacr is considerably better than the equivalent Lupy, but the Lupy is a $1000 dollars cheaper. Be careful with blanket statements. JMT

 

[bultinkle]

Zero interest. Been in research one way or another for 43 years. The point of a properly designed research protocol is there's no "trust" involved. None of the researchers knows which brands of the scopes are which, and whether on a particular trial, they have been dropped or not. The machine does the shooting, the numbers are tabulated, and only then are the scopes identified.

I'm in research too and I can absolutely say not every experiment is double blinded.

I would love to see a double blinded test that requires actual side impacts and actual zero retention if you can point me to one. No not a scope being shaken and seeing if it broke, a straight up side impact and a return to zero with an actual shot impacting within statistical variance of that barrel.

AFAIK nothing even remotely close exists, and I'm not sure why it would when applied ballistics and hornady started doing actual stats for reloading and everyone crucified them and said it was BS

It is my personal opinion that people don't want the data and if they don't want it it would be ludicrous for scope companies to risk it.

 

[Barehandlineman11]

When i say better and not in same class. Is reliability. Ive broken every scope out there. Tangent, zco,atacr and god only knows how many leupolds. Definitely not a blank statement. Theres more nf in the elr with big guns. And i compare 7-35 atacr to 7-35 leupold and the 5-25. Atacr doesnt have the glass of mark 5. But its better in reliability.

 

[Paladin300]

When i say better and not in same class. Is reliability. Ive broken every scope out there. Tangent, zco,atacr and god only knows how many leupolds. Definitely not a blank statement. Theres more nf in the elr with big guns. And i compare 7-35 atacr to 7-35 leupold and the 5-25. Atacr doesnt have the glass of mark 5. But its better in reliability.

I just simply disagree. I think they are apples to apples for reliability and testing shows that. They are both tough as nails, they have to be, but the glass in the Lupy is better and therefore in my opinion it gets the edge. That said the glass in the NF Atacr is not far behind but when the goal is 3620 yards plus every little bit counts and the Luepold is really the only one I have looked through at that distance that is really usable. My S&B 5-25 and Mark 5 and the Atacrs in the 5-25 range I have and have used all fall short at around 2000 yards. My eyes aren't what they use to be. That said the 5-25 Atacr is by far the best of the those scopes. The TT and ZCOs are excellent as well but the 5-25 NF shines in low light as the contrast makes up the difference. In broad daylight or even overcast situations the other two are brighter but the NF picks up more in low light. I believe that is what testing shows as well. Again I think it depends on the application, Mag range and price point as to which is better. However, I would agree that NF Atacr 5-25x56 is the best bang for your buck. I just prefer the controls on my S&B and I really like the ZCO particularly the 3-20. I have not had an opportunity to use the new 8-40 they just release. I ran an IOR Valada for several years but preferred the Schmidt.

 

[Barehandlineman11]

Atacr brighter then a zco anf tt?? i dont think we're looking through same scopes then. Thats the maine thing i liked about zco and tt was the glass

 

[Barrelnut]

Is the mechanism frozen up?
im kiddin.

I think the rings are cold welded to it as well.

 

[Rosebud]

Just heard the microwave ding, time to get the popcorn out.

 

[Culpeper]

A knife is supposed to dull…there's no way around that. And I don't think the point of this whole test is to prevent people from checking zero, I check my nightforce 1-3 times a season. It's never been off, but I step on that mountain with confidence every time. That confidence is something a lot of people don't understand how valuable it is. The test is to show what scopes are prone to shift, and to provide you with information and you can run with it how you'd like. And you can't say it's gullible when hundreds of people have had experiences following forms findings…it's much higher than that but just hundreds strictly on the forums.

Those aren't tests, lol. It's Internet mindless entertainment. It would be more fun if he would post that nonsense on Snipers Hide.

 

[Culpeper]

Use the test my wife came up with. Set your rifle with the scope mounted on it on the kitchen table setting on the bipod while your cleaning it. Go into the room you keep your cleaning supplies in. Then wait a minute for the crash. Rifle is knocked from the table onto a hard wooden chair then flips over and hits the rear eyepiece of the scope on the very hard tile floor. I can tell you now the a Leupold VX5HD ZL2 will not survive. Thank to Leupolds lifetime warranty services I had it back in three weeks.

You see? Your wife knows how to test a rifle scope. People can donate their rifles and scopes and she will get a lot of YouTube hits. All you have to do is put them on her table. It would be a hit.

 

[sp6x6]

This is where my rifle rides