Salt Bath Annealing Doesn't Work! by AMP

HobieH3 said:
I AM an Engineer. Quenching is used when you're hardening. The whole point of annealing is a slow cool.

Quenching will create stresses by locking in the crystalline structure.
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Brass is NOT a transformation hardening alloy, like the many alloys of steel and carbon. Therefore, "quenching" in water with cartridge brass stops heat migration immediately. There is no heat/quench hardening process in cartridge brass, only cold working will "harden" it and lose elasticity and generate cracks during reloading or firing.
 



This is how I anneal. It's about as cheap as you can go and has worked very well for me for years. I anneal every loading and with this method you will burn your fingers before you can over do it. My es/sd are single digits for my precision rifles. With most cartridges soon as I feel temp change at the head( bath water temps) it's done. The neck does get a faint glow in low light. Have batches of brass over 20 loadings
 
jasent said:



This is how I anneal. It's about as cheap as you can go and has worked very well for me for years. I anneal every loading and with this method you will burn your fingers before you can over do it. My es/sd are single digits for my precision rifles. With most cartridges soon as I feel temp change at the head( bath water temps) it's done. The neck does get a faint glow in low light. Have batches of brass over 20 loadings
Click to expand...

I guarantee the shoulders aren't getting anywhere near the temps your neck is getting, but the neck is more critical for tension, the shoulder might not need the anneal if it isn't being blown out to Ackley size. If you have minimum shoulder movement then it works for you. There are many ways to skin this critter !
 
Wedgy said:
I guarantee the shoulders aren't getting anywhere near the temps your neck is getting, but the neck is more critical for tension, the shoulder might not need the anneal if it isn't being blown out to Ackley size. If you have minimum shoulder movement then it works for you. There are many ways to skin this critter !
Click to expand...
shoulders get bumped.002" most loadings but sometimes I get lazy and don't bump shoulders. The brass in the video is wild cat and shoulder bump is separate step from neck size
 
I got schooled yesterday on annealing,,, like I mentioned in my above post,,, Yes and No...

But after visiting with my lead in the shooting sports world,,, he handed me my @zz back to me on a different way of looking at things. Ha...

What I didn't know then I sure know now,,, so my apologies to """All""" for my ignorance of not truely under standing what's going on,,, of course this is to be expected when I have my blinders on and my learning curve pumpkin switch turned off...

So what did my lead show me that is now sway-ing my train of thought towards the yes side apposed to the no...

Its was actually getting my hands on all the tools in his control centre """laboratory""" to show me what's going on,,, not in stone since there are thousands of ways to skin a €@+,,, no disrespect to €@+'s...

The tool we used was some 3 Shot new cases,,, a 2 torch burner, Tranquil,,, and a few casing prep presses along with a Arbour Press with a hydrolic indicator press the can be set to record neck tension...

Old school gets new schooled on what's going on using the KISS idea since its the easy way to kind of know what's going on...

Does annealing work,,, my new train of thought is yes,,, so long as its done correctly with what we work with...

That's not saying that my old school idea wasn't working,,, but like my lead said,,, how do I know if my neck tension is correct for each chunk of brass ???

This I don't since I've never worried about it...

Now I find out after 40 + years I let this idea pass me by,,, my bad for not adding this into the equation of """consistant""" ammo reloading since its easy and simple as it removes any dought of neck tension being an issue,,, more of the removing 1 less factor of 100's if not 1000's that """could""" cause issues of un-knowns...

Kind of like removing this issue out of the mix so us humans can concentrate on other things that need addressing...

I'll be dammed,,, Yuppers,,, I've been doing my thing for all these years by seeing what I only see,,, yet I failed to pick up on the key idea...

The word my lead uses is called, """RUN-OUT.""" this does not apply to neck tension or shoulder bump alone,,, RUN-OUT to him means everything...

Is ALL the equipment we use working with in the RUN-OUT specs,,, Press,,, Dies,,, Case Prep Tools,,, Seater,,, Powder Pour,,, The Brass,,, our Measuring Tools,,, and Our Selves to stay on top of this alooooong the way...

Dang,,, school was hard for me,,, getting schooled is even harder...

So my blinders are off I guess,,, The new idea of what areas need addressing are now in motion,,, and yes,,, my old school idea works,,, but it dosen't prove that it's consistant across the board eveytime / all the time...

Simple close range stuff can be just that,,, but where this RUN-OUT idea starts to take over is when distance becomes a factor...

Consistency is King,,, staying on top of it is Key,,, and learning how to measure it with the simple tools we have the best we can...

Yuppers,,, getting schooled on what I didn't know then I sure know now,,, my apologies once again since I missed the band wagon 20 to 40 years ago,,, HA...

Lots of mid priced tools are now getting checked to make sure there are on par,,, these tools will be used to make sure what I'm doing is correct from here on in...

Even the North can learn you know. LOL
 
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Once again, with this groups diversity, we will never come to an agreement because it realy doesn't matter what method you use as long as you get results. From my experience, the test were conducted very thoroughly and precisely. The results remain questionable At best. The motive for the test is only known by the tester. We can speculate, but that is all we can do (Speculate).

I started Annealing using one of the most crude methods (A pan of water and a Acetylene torch. It had its limits and occasionally I would ruin a case by not paying attention (A human trait). So studying the whole process and looking for the best outcome/results I decided to make my own machine. The machine idea was to eliminate human error for consistency in results. Also I could not afford an expensive machine.

I looked at all the different machines and decided on the flame method mainly because I understood it and thought I could have better control of different conditions. Several things that I found that could alter the results were the small propane bottles inability to maintain a consistent flame because of there volume. This was solved by going to a 5# propane bottle and a good regulator.

Next was accurate temperature control of the brass case. I decided that I needed a machine that was speed adjustable so the brass could stay In the flame for a precise time. I also wanted the cases to rotate for more uniform temp control. I also found that Templac worked ok in the initial setup but a digital Laser work better once I got rolling. I decided on quenching because after I went to the trouble of getting everything just right, I wanted to keep the results consistent. Some machines keep the case in an up rite position and moving so they cool consistently, so the need to quench is not a must, just a good way to stop the process.

So what I learned was for me, taking out the human factor was more consistent, Not necessarily better. Any system that gets you to the Happy zone of annealing is better that not annealing. There will always be something better but at what cost, and only the purchaser can decide if he wants to go that route.

This also brings up the teachings of my parents. "If you cant say something good about someone, don't say anything".

J E CUSTOM
 
kyron said:
Well another simple test is to shoot bullets from the same cases. 10 times.
One set of cases anneal every firing.
One set anneal every other firing.
One set anneal at the beginning and after the fifth firing.
And one set anneal only at the beginning.
Compare chronograph data from the sets and targets.

It has been done. Check Bryan Litz's work.
Click to expand...
Can you tell me where B Litz's study can be found?
 
Would love to see AMP redo the tests with the cases only immersed to rear of the shoulder, and maybe only to the front of the shoulder as well, at varying times between 5 and 20 seconds. But then why would they be motivated to find the ideal time and dip depth to make a competitors system work?!?
 
I am curious as to if the salt bath works. I have the setup and use the set up. 500 degrees Celsius is 932 degrees Fahrenheit. Brass begins to anneal around 500 degrees Fahrenheit. Benzomatic propane torch, blue not yellow map gas, burns at 3600 degrees Fahrenheit. So obviously the salt bath is not as hot allowing more time before a mistake.

The question is does the salt get it hot enough in the neck to anneal. If you were to just dip the neck and stopped at the shoulder I'm thinking it should work better. I can assure you that the brass neck gets 500 degrees. I only used to wear one glove and dropped brass and caught it with my other hand, I immediately dropped it none the less (I wear two gloves now).

With all that said I'm worried I wasted money on something that's not working. I'm a high school football coach/history teacher so it's not readily available seeing as my hobby is expensive. I would like a non biased test done, but can't test hardness.

What I do have is Hornady brass for my 7mag I refuse to use for precision. I will send 3 new pieces, 3 two times fired non salt bathed, 3 two times fired and salt bathed. I adjust test the most efficient way if anyone has a better idea. I can also do a flame and tempilaq if someone wants to compare cheapest way. Pm me if anyone wants to help, I saw someone volunteered earlier.
 
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