Remington 700 quality

[Trickymissfit]

G'Day Fella's,

As Trickymissfit mentioned, not only have quality gone out the window with some products but also service!
I put all of this down to direct effect of Globalisation!!!

Doh!
Homer

I wouldn't say that, but giving in quality for the almighty return on the dollar invested to make the stock holders happy (thus saving your butt). I've watched this over and over in all kinds of industrial aps thru the years, and down the road they all loose their butts.

Years back most of American and Canadian heavy industry operated on short term big profits with the grand idea that the product line would be long gone before everything caught up to them. I seriously doubt the Mike Walker planned on building five million Mod. 700 Remingtons when the design was just a basic blue print. China also operates on the same principal and down the road they will pay dearly. On the otherhand the typical Japanese industrial application works just the opposite in that they think lower returns for much longer terms. The first third of the time frame makes them look bad, but the last 50% makes them really look good in the auditor's eyes. Now we see a large amount of heavy industry in North America in a panic mode to change their ways of thought. Yet the tools have always been in place, but we just ignored them to appease the stock holders lust for bigger returns.

So can Remington be saved from a slow and painfull death? Yes it can. Their engineering is pretty sound in it's design. But now they have to meet certain competetors face to face where as before they didn't. What needs to happen at Remington is for engineering to take over manufacturing again. Move the bean counters off site, and start over. Perhaps they should shut all their operations down for six months to a year and retool and start all over with a staff that's upto speed. Implement Edwards Demming's ideas to run a business, and after three lean years watch the world beat a path to their door. A 40 million dollar invest will make a hundred million a year for them yearly as it prooves itself out. This is going to happen anyway wether their staff likes it or not, or they'll simply piece it out to somebody that knows how to turn profits without giving up quality. It's not rocket science, and believe me the owners know this upfront.
gary

 

[Greyfox]

Living in the Northeast, and meeting people that work at Remington at various shoots, and listening to them, it sounds like their problem at Remiington is good old fashioned lousy management. Particularly, the various functions within the organization appear disconnectected. Nothing fancy, basic blocking and tackling. You can definitely sense the frustration, especially when the Remington guys see 80 % of the factory class rifle shooters with Savages. Conversely, Savage people also frequent the shoots. They give the inmmediate impression of a highly motivated, well oiled machine! Capitalism at it's finest!

 

[Homer Oz]

G'Day Fella's,

Trickymisfit, sorry I was referring more toward the world in general, than Remington themselves!
But I think Remington could look at how their centerfire rifles are assembled. Their manufacturing, tooling, methods and processes seem to be fine, it's just how (the staff are told to) assemble the parts (that I have seen and heard about), that could be done better!!!

Greyfox, interesting to hear comments directly from the factory floor!
I recently purchased a New Savage Model12 action only and I have to say (as a Mechanical Fitter & Machinist by Trade (37 Years exp) I am impressed!!!

Doh!
Homer

 

[Greyfox]

G'Day Fella's,

Trickymisfit, sorry I was referring more toward the world in general, than Remington themselves!
But I think Remington could look at how their centerfire rifles are assembled. Their manufacturing, tooling, methods and processes seem to be fine, it's just how (the staff are told to) assemble the parts (that I have seen and heard about), that could be done better!!!

Greyfox, interesting to hear comments directly from the factory floor!
I recently purchased a New Savage Model12 action only and I have to say (as a Mechanical Fitter & Machinist by Trade (37 Years exp) I am impressed!!!

Doh!
Homer

A few years ago about 20 of us at our club were invited to the Savage plant and given a tour through making of their rifles from start to finish, including test firing. It was very fascinating in that their production process is a combination of very sophisticated computer driven machines in some processes like producing the actions through individual handwork such as an individual whose specialty was straightening barrels by eye and a hand operated straightening device. Evey aspect of the process focuses on
shooting precision. We got a chance to meet and chat with not only the plant workers but several of the upper management as well. We were very impressed.

 

[Homer Oz]

G'Day Fella's,

Grey Fox, I've been involved in the firearms industry here in Australia, for the last 15+ years. During that time I have noticed how Savage have continued to make forward leaps and bounds, on the other US firearm manufacturers.
This has happened primarily, since Ron Coburn bought the company!
He was a man on a mission, with a vision (and a few spare dollars) but he has achieved the things he (and us consumer) really wanted!
On ya Ron, well done!!!

Now don't take that comment as a "I'll buy a Savage over a Remington", because I won't (not on all counts) but for certain tasks, the Savage Centerfire Rifle will be what I'll buy!
If I want a lightweight, .308 or .30-06 sized hunting rifle, it will be a Kimber 84 M or L. A lightweight Magnum actioned rifle, it will be a Remington 700!
But for Varmints, some Target rifles and a .338 Lapua Magnum rifle, it would be a Savage!!!

Doh!
Homer

 

[J E Custom]

What has happened to the Remington 700? Are they junk, has their quality gone down, or has everyone else become better?



I have always considered the 700 to be my favorite rifle but the last few years I don't see to many that I would buy or even like. My last few rifles have been Savage and Browning, I hope Remington gets it together before it's to late. I have shopped and looked at many of their rifles, the only current models I seem to like are the CDL, most of them seem to have cheap stocks, and even the floor plates dont line up.

Like all manufactures, They have there ups and downs and sometimes allow rifles to leave there
plant that are not very well inspected/assembled.

I have worked on most all of the popular brands and found problems with all of them that have to
be corrected before they will shoot well.

How ever, They do have a very good design and componants and can be made to shoot very
accuratly if trued and assembled correctly.

When buying ''any'' factory rifle you are lucky to find a real shooter, but at 1/3 or 1/4 th the cost
of a custom it may well be worth the risk.

Factory barrels are not very good and require a lot of break in (60 + rounds with frequent cleaning)
to began shooting decent so lots of patience is required.

Just an opinion

J E CUSTOM

 

[TXshooter]

So I must be missing it. I shoot a lot of guns. Just recreationally but a lot non the less. I'm a Remington fan. So you guys that think they are slipping are we talking about the basic Remington or all of them. I personally shoot only senderos if off the shelf and they all shoot very well. I have a lot of Remington senderos from the very first to the latest. Now I recently shot a new savage and it did not perform out of the box like my senderos. I am currently messing with a couple weatherby mark V's. and they to are not shooting as good. And one has been blue printed by a very good smith. Now that's just my results. Can Remington be making a substandard rifle sure but then again what do you expect any rifle maker to put together for 599 at bass pro. Bottom line is that maybe it is because I haven't really messed with a low end Remington, I am not seeing what is being discussed but then again you get what you pay for right. I still love my Remington's and haven't yet shot a rifle to change my mind, well except for my custom which is on a Remington

 

[Greyfox]

So I must be missing it. I shoot a lot of guns. Just recreationally but a lot non the less. I'm a Remington fan. So you guys that think they are slipping are we talking about the basic Remington or all of them. I personally shoot only senderos if off the shelf and they all shoot very well. I have a lot of Remington senderos from the very first to the latest. Now I recently shot a new savage and it did not perform out of the box like my senderos. I am currently messing with a couple weatherby mark V's. and they to are not shooting as good. And one has been blue printed by a very good smith. Now that's just my results. Can Remington be making a substandard rifle sure but then again what do you expect any rifle maker to put together for 599 at bass pro. Bottom line is that maybe it is because I haven't really messed with a low end Remington, I am not seeing what is being discussed but then again you get what you pay for right. I still love my Remington's and haven't yet shot a rifle to change my mind, well except for my custom which is on a Remington

I don't think all the models from Remington are an issue. I bought an R15 and an R25 over the last fewyears and they shot and functioned superbly. The are produced for them by Bushmaster and DPMS who are owned by the parent company. I have also purchased a few Model 700 Mil Specs that were well made and shot in the .25-.5 MOA. It's possible that the Sendaros, Mil Specs, and other specialty models are manufactured to different specs compared to the high volume models shipped out into the department store, high volume, distribution network. Remington absolutely does this with their ammo! Why not their rifles? Just a thought.

 

[Mike 338]

A disturbing conversation. Read all the comments.

Remington - Topix

 

[J E Custom]

So I must be missing it. I shoot a lot of guns. Just recreationally but a lot non the less. I'm a Remington fan. So you guys that think they are slipping are we talking about the basic Remington or all of them. I personally shoot only senderos if off the shelf and they all shoot very well. I have a lot of Remington senderos from the very first to the latest. Now I recently shot a new savage and it did not perform out of the box like my senderos. I am currently messing with a couple weatherby mark V's. and they to are not shooting as good. And one has been blue printed by a very good smith. Now that's just my results. Can Remington be making a substandard rifle sure but then again what do you expect any rifle maker to put together for 599 at bass pro. Bottom line is that maybe it is because I haven't really messed with a low end Remington, I am not seeing what is being discussed but then again you get what you pay for right. I still love my Remington's and haven't yet shot a rifle to change my mind, well except for my custom which is on a Remington

There is definitely a difference between the sendero and the SPS (The cheapest) in overall quality,

But even though the action looks different because of the finish, and the stocks on sendero's
are of better quality they are all the same actions and barrels. The sendero's used to be assembled by the custom shop and were first rate. the SPS's are put together by assembly line workers not
gunsmiths and therefore the quality is not there in the assembly.

I have rebarreled many SPS's and after blueprinting and polishing that black crap of the bolt, they
are very smooth and accuracy.

The only Remington I will not work on and do not recomend is the 770. They are a different
design and not much can be done to them if they dont shoot well.

Keep in mind that most of the custom actions are Remington 700 Clones because they work.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Trickymissfit]

G'Day Fella's,

Trickymisfit, sorry I was referring more toward the world in general, than Remington themselves!
But I think Remington could look at how their centerfire rifles are assembled. Their manufacturing, tooling, methods and processes seem to be fine, it's just how (the staff are told to) assemble the parts (that I have seen and heard about), that could be done better!!!
Remington killed the name years back with corporate greed. They felt it was a good thing to operate on a known nameplate come hell or highwater. They never bought any new equipment, and what good equipment they had on hand wasn't maintained like other companys do. This alone was the first strike in their down turn in quality controll. On the otherhand we can take a Savage action and do a check on it, and find out that it's extremely strait and square. Why when both recievers are cut on CNC machines? Simple really. One is the processes are much different. Two is that nobody ever checks their equipment for proper alinement. From what I hear they don't even know how to properly maintain their equipment, and refuse to spend the bucks to have someone who dose know do it for them.
Twenty five years ago Savage was in the same mode of operation. They retooled most of their input machinery, and radically changed their processes. Now they build actions that usually have less than .002" compound error machined into them. Two things came out of this. One is they assembled easier and quicker with little hand fitting to be done because they are much more consistent in the operational window they work with. Secondly finished parts are cheaper to build with less labor involved. Weatherby did the same basic idea a few years back after moving their machining operations to the USA, and now a MK.V can be bought for about the same money as a Model 700 Remington in many cases. I suspect the new Winchester Mod. 70's are similar to the other two.

Greyfox, interesting to hear comments directly from the factory floor!
I recently purchased a New Savage Model12 action only and I have to say (as a Mechanical Fitter & Machinist by Trade (37 Years exp) I am impressed!!!

Doh!
Homer

If Savage was to maybe add $125 in machining cost per rifle, and knowing the equipment and a rough idea on the processes, they could easilly build a .001" window rifle action, and maybe even slightly tighter than the .001". Hard turning and precision hardening are kinda unkown in the firearms world, but done everyday in the rest of the heavy machining world. The real expense would be a second minor recut of the heat treated surfaces to remove about .005".
gary

 

[Trickymissfit]

There is definitely a difference between the sendero and the SPS (The cheapest) in overall quality,

But even though the action looks different because of the finish, and the stocks on sendero's
are of better quality they are all the same actions and barrels. The sendero's used to be assembled by the custom shop and were first rate. the SPS's are put together by assembly line workers not
gunsmiths and therefore the quality is not there in the assembly.

I have rebarreled many SPS's and after blueprinting and polishing that black crap of the bolt, they
are very smooth and accuracy.

The only Remington I will not work on and do not recomend is the 770. They are a different
design and not much can be done to them if they dont shoot well.

Keep in mind that most of the custom actions are Remington 700 Clones because they work.

J E CUSTOM

nobody ever said the 700 action wasn't a sound design, but it's the other half that kills it. By the way after watching a couple videos of their custom shop doing Mod.40's I knew it was a lost cause from the get go. But given my choice of Remingtons, it'd be a mod. 40 or a generic 722 as they have some things about them I like better.
gary

 

[7stw]

A disturbing conversation. Read all the comments.

Remington - Topix

Mike, WOW, I read that whole link!!! And then we wonder why!! I too am a " Big Green " fan from way back, but that's just it, the older stuff is far and away better than the " off the shelf " stuff nowadays. I bought a new CDL last November, and was never so disgusted with a rifle as that one. It looked great, bit I just couldn't get it to shoot like I know it could. I had heard that CS sucked, so I traded it in, toward another used, but older Remington, that shoots like a lazer. ( go figure).
Bottom line is, the Remington that we grew up with is dead and gone. What exists today that calls itself " Remington" is just a store front.
Mike Walker must be rolling over I'm sure!!!! That man had a vision!!!!!!

 

[Mike 338]

Mike, WOW, I read that whole link!!! And then we wonder why!! I too am a " Big Green " fan from way back, but that's just it, the older stuff is far and away better than the " off the shelf " stuff nowadays. I bought a new CDL last November, and was never so disgusted with a rifle as that one. It looked great, bit I just couldn't get it to shoot like I know it could. I had heard that CS sucked, so I traded it in, toward another used, but older Remington, that shoots like a lazer. ( go figure).
Bottom line is, the Remington that we grew up with is dead and gone. What exists today that calls itself " Remington" is just a store front.
Mike Walker must be rolling over I'm sure!!!! That man had a vision!!!!!!

We hear mostly from the end user, the customer. This is a snapshot of the other half. I'm not one to fault a company for trying to contain costs but breathing a workforce in and out at will, shows a dismissive attitude about the quality that's going out the door. I see a theme here. They don't like their jobs and there's a groundswell of people who don't like their rifles.