Reducing ES

[25WSM]

I didn't read every post word for word but the main thing I would look at is ignition. I can't get any load to shoot that big a spread in my rifles. A bad es for me is 20 and it's not hard at all to get in the 6 to 8 range. But since it was very cold you need to have a perfectly clean bolt Clean your firing pin and spring with lighter fluid and put it back together and see if that helps. clean your trigger unit while your at it. The zippo fluid leaves a very small film of oil on your parts that won't gum up in the cold. This will ensure you have proper firing pin strike. Also if you are sizing too far and creating too much headspace it will cause this and seating primers too shallow . They must be seated all the way down. All these things can cause poor ignition. Just because it goes bang every time doesn't mean it's good. On my match rifles I change out my firing pin spring every season. Good ignition is crucial for low es and sd numbers. Your brass and loads would have to be totally junk to get numbers that high. I highly doubt they are the issue.
shep

 

[capona]

I didn't read every post word for word but the main thing I would look at is ignition. I can't get any load to shoot that big a spread in my rifles. A bad es for me is 20 and it's not hard at all to get in the 6 to 8 range. But since it was very cold you need to have a perfectly clean bolt Clean your firing pin and spring with lighter fluid and put it back together and see if that helps. clean your trigger unit while your at it. The zippo fluid leaves a very small film of oil on your parts that won't gum up in the cold. This will ensure you have proper firing pin strike. Also if you are sizing too far and creating too much headspace it will cause this and seating primers too shallow . They must be seated all the way down. All these things can cause poor ignition. Just because it goes bang every time doesn't mean it's good. On my match rifles I change out my firing pin spring every season. Good ignition is crucial for low es and sd numbers. Your brass and loads would have to be totally junk to get numbers that high. I highly doubt they are the issue.
shep

Shep, can you elaborate here so I learn a bit how a firing pin can change the dynamics of Ignition beyond making it go bang?
I thought once the firing pin hit the primer and ignited it, it's job was done. How can that vary beyond bang, or just a click?

 

[orkan]

I'll list a few things, then my answers to those things. There are unlimited things to list, and unlimited discussions to have about each... but I'll just shortcut to a specific few that tend to spur the most drastic improvement. The reduction of ES/SD is literally what this entire handloading discipline is about. As such, there are no easy answers.

Annealing - (bench source or AMP)
Neck turning - (Bryan Blakes new AutoDOD)
Correct tumbling methods (not stainless) - (vibratory tumbler with rice)
Proper FL case sizing - (custom FL sizing dies built from your own resize reamer)
Extremely precise Optimum Charge Weight testing - (Prometheus GenII powder measure)
Proper component selection - (run a powder that has as slow a burn characteristic as you can get away with, for a soft pressure curve)
Extremely precise primer seating depth testing - (Primal Rights Competition Primer Seater)
Extremely precise bullet seating depth testing - (custom micrometer bullet seaters)
Properly timed ignition in your rifle - (Lone Peak Fuzion action, with minimal to zero cock on close, with no excessive sear, cocking piece, or firing pin drag)

Done correctly, your SD should be below 3-5 fps... or inside what your chronograph will be able to resolve reliably. Single digit ES's are achievable if you spend enough money on equipment and enough time learning to use it.

 

[Buckreed]

I didn't read every post word for word but the main thing I would look at is ignition. I can't get any load to shoot that big a spread in my rifles. A bad es for me is 20 and it's not hard at all to get in the 6 to 8 range. But since it was very cold you need to have a perfectly clean bolt Clean your firing pin and spring with lighter fluid and put it back together and see if that helps. clean your trigger unit while your at it. The zippo fluid leaves a very small film of oil on your parts that won't gum up in the cold. This will ensure you have proper firing pin strike. Also if you are sizing too far and creating too much headspace it will cause this and seating primers too shallow . They must be seated all the way down. All these things can cause poor ignition. Just because it goes bang every time doesn't mean it's good. On my match rifles I change out my firing pin spring every season. Good ignition is crucial for low es and sd numbers. Your brass and loads would have to be totally junk to get numbers that high. I highly doubt they are the issue.
shep

Thanks Shep. I read a lot of your posts here. Your last comment about loads or brass being junk to get numbers that high is what I was thinking when I started this. I am making a mistake somewhere. I will certainly start including your tips in my process going forward.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

You may be surprised to hear that in 1000yd BR es is not really talked about. Why? Because if the group is small what else matters? I have seen many sub 2" groups with 20 fps es. I shot a 3.5" this am with 30 fps of es. I have lost count of the 1000s of rounds fired at 1k for group. ES doesn't mean a thing. Groups do. In fact, I would bet when tuning at 1k your best es load will not be your smallest group. I mean ever, we see that so consistently its not funny. I time every rifle I build. I dont tumble or clean brass at all. Annealing is not a given, most 1k br Agg records are shot without annealing brass. I shot a couple agg records one year, I ran non in LG and annealed in HG for a whole season just to test. That year I broke 2 HG agg records. But the LG shot just as small when conditions were equal. I just got better conditions for my HG targets. So many facts, are not. Testing for yourself will never be out done.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

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[WahooYahoo]

Interesting, I have a old school light beam chrono. I could use the magneto speed on the barrel and shoot through the light beam chrono. That would tell me if they are different but I suppose I won't know which is correct. For my benefit, what makes you question the data?

Just a hunch. I've chased ghosts before. Lol. 50fps is a lot of gain, in that load, for .2 grains, that's 2% velocity increase. If you can, get next to a LabRadar and redo that portion of your ladder, I suspect, based on this and your high ES in the rounds of 5, that those velocities are skewed. There may be other issues. There are a lot of good questions asked in this thread but I have wasted a lot of time, when components were cheap and available, working off of a bad data point.

 

[Rick Richard]

I'd bet most BR records have been shot with $15 Lee primer seaters. Guys need to focus more on tuning than equipment.

Alex, can you explain what you mean about tuning? Some folks may think brass and load development is considered part of tuning too.

 

[Buckreed]

Just a hunch. I've chased ghosts before. Lol. 50fps is a lot of gain, in that load, for .2 grains, that's 2% velocity increase. If you can, get next to a LabRadar and redo that portion of your ladder, I suspect, based on this and your high ES in the rounds of 5, that those velocities are skewed. There may be other issues. There are a lot of good questions asked in this thread but I have wasted a lot of time, when components were cheap and available, working off of a bad data point.

Gotcha. I appreciate the additional thoughts. I have followed through already on but quality brass so when that arrives I plan to start over and I will plot the new data against the old and see how they line up. I don't know anyone that has a lab radar but I can ask around. I certainly don't want to chase a ghost here so I appreciate input.

 

[orkan]

There's what "can" happen at 1000yds. Then there's what you set the stage for. Controlling the variables to the highest degree possible will typically result in better performance. Planning, and execution.

Obviously shooting and testing for yourself is a part of that equation. Using lesser gear when others are using the best they can find... is a recipe for failure. Same is true of rifles.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

By tuning I do mean load development and related things.
Guys get way too caught up in the tech side of shooting. Es is a good example. When I talk about BR records Im talking agg records. Thats the average off all the targets shot over the whole year. It is THE highest standard for measuring consistent accuracy at 1000yds. Those guys that are shooting those aggs have their stuff figured out. And the loading process is very simple. The right tune is 90% of it. Again by tune I mean, the right powder and change, the right bullet and seating depth, the right primer, the right neck tension. It all must be tested. I am very confident to say, if your rifle is not grouping as well as you want it to, your feeding it the wrong load. It should go without saying that I am talking about well built rifles, and quality components.

A typical procedure many of us use looks like this.
Run fired case into a fl bushing die, no cleaning at all.
Clean primer pocket, seat new primer by feel
brush the neck id with a nylon brush
dump powder (weighed to the kernal, this matters)
seat bullet with wilson die

I don't sort brass or bullets.

You dont have to complicate it any more that that. Now, if through testing you find annealing shoots smaller groups with your particular load combo, do it. Some guys use mandrels to set neck tension, some use some type of lube in the neck, ext. All of those things can and do work for some guys. The simple procedure above has accounted for some of the smallest groups and aggs ever fired.

 

[huntinghuasna]

Many guys don't clean their barrel until it starts to shoot bad, one indication is an increase in ES. My crowd is leaning towards that philosophy and removing copper during that occasional cleaning. How many rounds will your barrel hold accuracy and speed is another rabbit hole!

 

[Rick Richard]

By tuning I do mean load development and related things.
Guys get way too caught up in the tech side of shooting. Es is a good example. When I talk about BR records Im talking agg records. Thats the average off all the targets shot over the whole year. It is THE highest standard for measuring consistent accuracy at 1000yds. Those guys that are shooting those aggs have their stuff figured out. And the loading process is very simple. The right tune is 90% of it. Again by tune I mean, the right powder and change, the right bullet and seating depth, the right primer, the right neck tension. It all must be tested. I am very confident to say, if your rifle is not grouping as well as you want it to, your feeding it the wrong load. It should go without saying that I am talking about well built rifles, and quality components.

A typical procedure many of us use looks like this.
Run fired case into a fl bushing die, no cleaning at all.
Clean primer pocket, seat new primer by feel
brush the neck id with a nylon brush
dump powder (weighed to the kernal, this matters)
seat bullet with wilson die

I don't sort brass or bullets.

You dont have to complicate it any more that that. Now, if through testing you find annealing shoots smaller groups with your particular load combo, do it. Some guys use mandrels to set neck tension, some use some type of lube in the neck, ext. All of those things can and do work for some guys. The simple procedure above has accounted for some of the smallest groups and aggs ever fired.

Thank you sir.

 

[AZHTR]

This thread by far is one of the best I've ever read. Because my gunsmith (he shoots for the US National Team) says that "ever barrel is like a woman, you need to find what she likes" (not trying to make a feminist joke here). Some barrels are finicky and some will shoot most everything. My 2 cents here, my groups have drastically improved by 1) developing a process that produces consistent sub-MOA "groups" (by testing - not using ES/SD)
2) upgraded my powder scale to the A&D 120. Quality equipment is expensive, but so is shooting round after round getting frustrated.

Thanks to all of you for the great information!