Reducing ES

[Buckreed]

What kind of powder scale are you using? What do your groups look like with that high ES? A good set of scales can reduce flyers & ES along with good brass & good brass prep. I don't believe neck tension will cause those high ES numbers. Once you get your ES down considerably then you can tweak it with neck tension!

I am using a RCBS beam scale. I also ordered some Lapua brass last night. Supposed to arrive next week. I'm going to pick up a small digital scale this week too. That will make it much easier to weigh brass and bullets.

 

[Flatbow]

Just brushing the necks before seating a bullet is best, the carbon actually acts as a neck lube.

L.Sherm, how often if at all do you tumble or clean brass rather than just brushing the neck.
What is your opinion of tumbling and then using Imperial dry neck lube?

 

[Buckreed]

Looking at your original post, you have only tried 2 different loads using flat spots in your ladder? I would try a few more. Just choose one of the two and work up and down by .2gr.

If I had to do one thing case prep wise after sizing to improve ES, it would be use a mandrel to set neck tension. So I either use a bushing die or a full length without the expander ball. Then I run a mandrel in the necks. I also recommend flash hole deburring if you're not using premium brass and possibly primer pocket uniforming.

I would start with the charge weight. Next I would tweak seating depth by .003" so say you end up with an SD of 12 with 43.1 gr seated .015" off, I'd try .012", .009", .006", .003" and the other way, .018", .021", etc... you'll be surprised what happens at .003" at a time. Once you find what seating depth you're bullets like, you can tweak powder charge again.

Lastly, I would experiment with primers.

Some bullets are very tolerant to jump, some aren't. Good luck.

Yes, I did choose two loads from my ladder based on velocities. The original ladder was at 0.2gr increments. For example;
43.2 2595
43.4 2590
43.6 2599
43.8 2646

So I chose 43.5 as one area to test since this was in the middle of an area that had small velocity changes with increasing charges. I was surprised to see a larger ES for 5 shots with all the same charge. The fact that I got a larger ES in 5 of the same charge than those with incremental increases is what made me think that something else is going on here. I assume I'm doing something wrong.

 

[Buckreed]

That's really high numbers.
What kind of groups are you getting with those numbers?

Those numbers being that high I believe require an approach to eliminate what could be a dozen variables in your reloading by buying some Lapua before you go down a rabbit hole buying new electronic scales which can be a whole different thread on their own.

If you use quality brass and still have extreme numbers, then look at your loading process( not reload) since you haven't done a reload on the new brass.

But you need to supply more details as well.

What's the case length you are using for the group of brass.
What's the press and dies you are using.
How does the projectile feel when seating each round?
Consistent neck tension?

You should be under 30 with attention to the basics.
Getting into single digits requires more attention to each detail.
But the numbers you are getting are really extreme.
I haven't use the VLD so I'm not sure what typical for that kind of projectile.

It shoots around 0.75" to 0.50" at 100 yrds but I struggle at 600 yds. That's really what made me think to look at ES.
I did order 100 pieces of Lapua brass last night which is fortunate because brass has been limited.
for case length I trim back to SAUMI each time
I have a single stage Lee press and RCBS FL sizing die
I'm no expert (obviously) but I think that it feels consistent.
I was not measuring the neck prior to seating the bullet. I will start doing this.

 

[demonjigger]

Well my 308 load was developed with once fired range pick up brass from law enforcement. It is FC American Eagle ball ammo fired out of M-14's. This is the method I used for my 308 bolt gun. My load is with IMR 4064 and 175 TMK's and I also used the same brass with 168 SMK'S. I don't weight sort brass or bullets. With this brass I full length size, run the mandrel in the necks, trim with a Tri way, and debur the flash holes. I have great results. I agree with above statements about rounds heating up in the chamber if you are shooting in 20° Temps that could be a factor in your ES/SD.

 

[demonjigger]

I would still try different charge weights too

 

[L.Sherm]

L.Sherm, how often if at all do you tumble or clean brass rather than just brushing the neck.
What is your opinion of tumbling and then using Imperial dry neck lube?

I never tumble my brass, there's only one reason IMHO if you want nice shinny ones. I think its more of a determent than benefit.
If I think the outside is getting dirty I use some really fine steel wool and rotate the necks to clean off some carbon.
I only use imperial dry lube on the inside of the necks on new brass after that just brush before seating.

 

[L.Sherm]

It shoots around 0.75" to 0.50" at 100 yrds but I struggle at 600 yds. That's really what made me think to look at ES.

Your example is why I dont trust 100 yards groups at distance i.e 500 or longer.
If you play around with velocity you will see 20fps makes .5 difference at 500 ask yourself can you shoot the difference i cant.
I believe people spend to much time chasing single digit E.S when they need to look at what there target is telling them.

 

[Buckreed]

Your example is why I dont trust 100 yards groups at distance i.e 500 or longer.
If you play around with velocity you will see 20fps makes .5 difference at 500 ask yourself can you shoot the difference i cant.
I believe people spend to much time chasing single digit E.S when they need to look at what there target is telling them.

Good point. I certainly can't either. I would like to reduce as much variability as I can, I need all the help I can get. To your point though maybe 10 or less as a target is unnecessary. 20 would be ok for me as well. I have gotten a lot of good feedback here and have some things to try to improve my process. I appreciate the input, I really don't need to waste components right now chasing a unrealistic ES.

 

[JBarton]

I was struggling with my 300WM loads last fall. I wasn't getting the high ES numbers you have had but in the 30's. I dropped my ES numbers lubricating the necks. My process was as follows: Note: I still wasn't happy and have since changed my process further. This is what I did with what I had at the time.
Decap
Wet tumbled with stainless pins and dawn dish soap.
Anneal
Size using a hornady sizing die with expander ball.
Trim, chamfer and debur.
Dry tumble in vibratory.
Seat primers, drop powder. Powder was measured using a digital scale.
Lubricate necks using qtip and one shot.
Seat bullets using a hornady die with a micrometer.
ES was between 18-20 average.
I wanted it at minimum of 15 ES.
I found that annealing caused the brass to oxidize and become rough. So I switched up my process to anneal before I wet tumbled. I also purchased a flash hole debur tool, primer pocket uniforming tool and a Sinclair mandrel die with expanding mandrel (0.306"). The expander ball has been removed from my sizing die and I use the mandrel to finish sizing my necks. I no longer lubricate my necks and my average ES is 13. I am also pretty anal about my powder drops. I use a pair of tweezers to add the last bit of powder until my scale jumps to the 10'th of a grain im loading to. I also recalibrate my scale every 15 drops and always use my wind screen on the scale. **** things are sensitive. I also let it warm up and equalize for a minimum of 30 minutes.
I haven't sorted brass or bullets by weight yet. I also plan on getting a better digital scale that will read within 0.05 grains. Im going to have to save up for the one I want.
I hope this helps. It has worked well for me.

 

[Canhunter35]

Here is my question to everyone. How do you reduce your ES?
I shot a ladder of 15 rounds (incremental at 0.2 gr. each) over my magneto speed, plotted the results, and found two flat spots of velocity.
43.5 and 44.5 were both in the middle of the flat areas.
I loaded 5 at 43.5 and 5 at 44.5. All ten were loaded exactly the same as the rounds in the ladder.
On the 5 of 43.5 I got an ES of 78
On the 5 of the 44.5 I got an ES of 51

Obviously I would like this to be closer to 10. What do you suggest? Different brass? Neck Tension issue?
Here are the components I'm using.
RL 15
Winchester Brass
Berger 175gr VLD
Federal #210 primers
0.015 jump

Thanks for the help!

Anneal your brass, I use a socket in a drill with a propane torch. Works fine
Uniform the flash holes, I like the k&m one
Once you do that, weight sort your brass into .5gr increments
When you're done that, shoot them at extended range and map your vertical spread

 

[esshup]

I anneal for every loading. I condition the primer pocket and deburr the inside of the flash hole the first time I prep the brass, then don't touch them. Chamfer the case mouths with a VLD deburring tool.

BUT I found that different neck tension will drastically change ES. So now I use the Redding Imperial Dry Neck Lube instead of the Mica lube. I use a wire brush on my case prep center to remove carbon, then use that lube. ES readings dropped, last time I checked I shot 5 rounds, velocity varied from 3219 to 3226 fps. In previous testing I have seen a 50+ fps increase just due to tight necks when seating the bullets.

Biggest change in ES was seen by switching from Mica to the Imperial Dry Neck Lube. I tumble my brass in untreated corn cob media after sizing the brass too.

 

[Montana'eer]

Can't say I'm an expert but this was interesting (to me). I bought a box of Hornady Match ELDM ammo to break a new rifle. I chrony'd the last 2 5 shot strings. Accuracy at 100yds was great, but ES 63 and SD22. Pretty crappy I think.

My loads were using virgin Peterson brass, using the same bullet as the Hornady and those ES/SD numbers nose dived. The best was 5/5 (although accuracy was not great). The more velocity the smaller the ES/SD. I did basic brass prep- I ran them through the die expander ball, chamfered and dry lubed prior to bullet seating. That's it. I have yet to reload that once fired brass.

I know it could be a number of factors- powder, brass, primer differences, but the Peterson brass is really consistent (weight wise). I've got Peterson brass for 3 calibers right now.

 

[L.Sherm]

at 100yds was great, but ES 63 and SD22. Pretty crappy I think

I've seen it as high as 100 FPS in factory ammo in a 300WM.
Groups were 2"