Reducing ES

[Justice1327]

I am annealing with each firing. I'll pick up a small scale this week sometime.
I just weighed them as is after firing so you are correct, they should probably cleaned up first. I can tumble them for an hour or so an see if they change.

Recommend s SS media tumbler. If done for an extended period of time yes you can roll the case neck mouth's in but you can also just go back and clean up the mouth's after you turn them. Also the type of stainless steel media you use as an impact on cleaning and rolling the mouth's in. You don't have to use the steel pens there are companies who make steel chips that do a really good job

 

[wolffo]

I'd get the digital scale and ladder in 0.1gr increments, I stop at .5"

 

[blackburbot]

An ES like that is awfully high. Haven't read the whole thread, but would be checking my chrono for issues. Labradar doesn't seem really sensitive for angle to shot, the older chronoy flip models were horrible for shooting straight through them and changes with clouds. Haven't used magnetospeed so can't comment.

Slow shooting speed down wait a couple minutes between shots.

Good brass prep and cleaning.

How do they shoot? If super tight groups for the distance you shoot. Be happy, lots of overthinking of reloading and chasing ghosts. Lots of incredibly tight groups were shot and developed without knowing how fast they go. Shoot to make you happy, compared to making others jealous of your numbers

 

[capona]

That's really high numbers.
What kind of groups are you getting with those numbers?

Those numbers being that high I believe require an approach to eliminate what could be a dozen variables in your reloading by buying some Lapua before you go down a rabbit hole buying new electronic scales which can be a whole different thread on their own.

If you use quality brass and still have extreme numbers, then look at your loading process( not reload) since you haven't done a reload on the new brass.

But you need to supply more details as well.

What's the case length you are using for the group of brass.
What's the press and dies you are using.
How does the projectile feel when seating each round?
Consistent neck tension?

You should be under 30 with attention to the basics.
Getting into single digits requires more attention to each detail.
But the numbers you are getting are really extreme.
I haven't use the VLD so I'm not sure what typical for that kind of projectile.

 

[jrg]

Here is my question to everyone. How do you reduce your ES?
I shot a ladder of 15 rounds (incremental at 0.2 gr. each) over my magneto speed, plotted the results, and found two flat spots of velocity.
43.5 and 44.5 were both in the middle of the flat areas.
I loaded 5 at 43.5 and 5 at 44.5. All ten were loaded exactly the same as the rounds in the ladder.
On the 5 of 43.5 I got an ES of 78
On the 5 of the 44.5 I got an ES of 51

Obviously I would like this to be closer to 10. What do you suggest? Different brass? Neck Tension issue?
Here are the components I'm using.
RL 15
Winchester Brass
Berger 175gr VLD
Federal #210 primers
0.015 jump

Thanks for the help!

What kind of powder scale are you using? What do your groups look like with that high ES? A good set of scales can reduce flyers & ES along with good brass & good brass prep. I don't believe neck tension will cause those high ES numbers. Once you get your ES down considerably then you can tweak it with neck tension!

 

[demonjigger]

Looking at your original post, you have only tried 2 different loads using flat spots in your ladder? I would try a few more. Just choose one of the two and work up and down by .2gr.

If I had to do one thing case prep wise after sizing to improve ES, it would be use a mandrel to set neck tension. So I either use a bushing die or a full length without the expander ball. Then I run a mandrel in the necks. I also recommend flash hole deburring if you're not using premium brass and possibly primer pocket uniforming.

I would start with the charge weight. Next I would tweak seating depth by .003" so say you end up with an SD of 12 with 43.1 gr seated .015" off, I'd try .012", .009", .006", .003" and the other way, .018", .021", etc... you'll be surprised what happens at .003" at a time. Once you find what seating depth you're bullets like, you can tweak powder charge again.

Lastly, I would experiment with primers.

Some bullets are very tolerant to jump, some aren't. Good luck.

 

[passatiji]

Hi, your experience is frustrating for sure and being new to handloading I had similar issue. Because I had to go through this relatively recently here is what I have learned and hopefully this will help you. The bottom line is that reducing number of variables will allow you to nail down the root cause:

1. Case preparation should of the same steps, no shortcuts.
   • If you anneal - do it every time
   • If you have tumbler - do it every time
   • If you trim - you got the idea
   • Same lube
   • Same die, bushing, and etc.
   • Sort, weight and inspect your brass (including flashing holes) when you think it's ready for loading.
2. Primers (this is what my problem was, I had a bad batch. My friend landed me same brand but match grade and issue was solved)
   • Same brand, preferably same batch, stored in dry space
   • Same seating depth (apparently if affects how they ignite when activated)
3. Powder
   • Same powder (when I got two 1LB bottles of the same powder my friend mixed them in one bottle, IMO it's an overkill)
   • Weight of it is the most important so make sure you have quality scale (don't trust measuring by volume)
4. Bullets
   • Weighted, sorted
   • Select groups of bullets similar in weight required today for your load development
5. Bullet seating
   • Check that your seating step isn't pushing the tip of the bullet
   • Make sure your seating depth is identical
   • Get reliable caliper to double check
6. Chronograph (sounds like you have a Magneto and I have herd they are reliable)
7. At the range don't mix different day results even when loads are identical. Conditions (air pressure, humidity and temperature) change slightly affecting speeds. Use same day data for calculation ES and SD.

Following these "simple " steps will bring a lot of clarity in your load development process. Realistically it's easier than it sounds, because you are focusing on 10-20 cartridges. Once you stabilized your ES you can start playing with seating depth, neck tension changing one parameter at a time. And when your load is developed, your loading process isn't that exhausting and time consuming, you just follow the established routine knowing exactly what to do.
Sorry for the long answer. I hope some of it helps you. Good luck.

 

[cjuve]

I have had issues with Alliant powder and temp sensitivity in the past, to the point where cartridge dwell time in a hot chamber made a difference. I did not see the velocities listed on your shot strings, is this a random 1 shot throwing the whole string off or something different?

 

[L.Sherm]

The newer RL powders especially 23 and 16 are very stable, not even in the same league as the older ones

 

[cjuve]

The newer RL powders especially 23 and 16 are very stable, not even in the same league as the older ones
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And how do they compare to RL 15? Which is what he is using.

 

[demonjigger]

Temp stability might matter if he's cooking each round in the chamber, but shooting 5 over a couple minutes isn't going to matter ambient temperature wise.

 

[Paulstarr]

Here is my question to everyone. How do you reduce your ES?
I shot a ladder of 15 rounds (incremental at 0.2 gr. each) over my magneto speed, plotted the results, and found two flat spots of velocity.
43.5 and 44.5 were both in the middle of the flat areas.
I loaded 5 at 43.5 and 5 at 44.5. All ten were loaded exactly the same as the rounds in the ladder.
On the 5 of 43.5 I got an ES of 78
On the 5 of the 44.5 I got an ES of 51

Obviously I would like this to be closer to 10. What do you suggest? Different brass? Neck Tension issue?
Here are the components I'm using.
RL 15
Winchester Brass
Berger 175gr VLD
Federal #210 primers
0.015 jump

Thanks for the help!

Be sure of the accuracy of your powder charge,sort your brass by weight and concentrate on neck tension.Using Wilson chamber seating dies along with a arbour press give you a better feel for variations in neck tension.If you still have problems change the powder/primer combination.Remember ES is not everything it needs to go hand in glove with the accuracy of the round.

 

[Eyemakecalls2]

Here is my question to everyone. How do you reduce your ES?
I shot a ladder of 15 rounds (incremental at 0.2 gr. each) over my magneto speed, plotted the results, and found two flat spots of velocity.
43.5 and 44.5 were both in the middle of the flat areas.
I loaded 5 at 43.5 and 5 at 44.5. All ten were loaded exactly the same as the rounds in the ladder.
On the 5 of 43.5 I got an ES of 78
On the 5 of the 44.5 I got an ES of 51

Obviously I would like this to be closer to 10. What do you suggest? Different brass? Neck Tension issue?
Here are the components I'm using.
RL 15
Winchester Brass
Berger 175gr VLD
Federal #210 primers
0.015 jump

Thanks for the help!

Winchester brass presses its primer holes. It leave tiny flanges inside. Take a drill bit just larger than the hole and by hand you can feel the burrs come of once you drop the bit in, center it in the hole, an twist it. You can feel it once it's nice and smooth.

 

[cjuve]

Temp stability might matter if he's cooking each round in the chamber, but shooting 5 over a couple minutes isn't going to matter ambient temperature wise.

I thought I saw where ambient temp was in the 20's I would think that it would be pretty easy to change cartridge Temp enough to affect speed of going from a cold chamber to a hot one with a little dwell time. I know I have seen this happen before with RL 33