Rangefinder need....as opposed to want...

[LeddSlinger]

I can already predict the outcome of this thread. He'll buy the Leica 1000 to save a couple dollars. Then in a year or two he'll be trying to sell it to upgrade to the Leica 1600, but he will have trouble getting his money back out of the 1000 since everyone wants the 1600 just like him so he'll end up losing more money than if he had just went with the 1600 in the first place.....

Been there, done that with other optics...

 

[FearNoWind]

Catorres 1 -

I'd like to add one last note to this discussion. When seeking advice for selecting equipment it's a good idea to understand that some of your responses will come from hunters, some from target shooters, and some from a combination of those interests. The long rang target shooters usually do a lot more shooting than those who only hunt and, in my experience, have need for more sophisticated equipment to develop "bug hole" accuracy at long distances. Some hunters, depending on the terrain they hunt, rarely even get a shot that's over 500 yards.
Consider first the area you'll be most likely to be hunting in. Will you be "hunting" or driving around looking for game crossing the road. How large is the game and is the area open country or forested; maybe brushy slopes and ravines.
I shoot competition and I hunt. The equipment I use for each discipline is different because each has its own challenges. My longest kill shot in the past fifty years was 675 yards. My son's longest kill shot over the past twenty years was 735 yards. We've glassed a lot of legal game that were further out than that but, for many reasons, they weren't appropriate targets. I don't need a 1600 yard range finder. Do you?

 

[catorres1]

Catorres 1 -

I'd like to add one last note to this discussion. When seeking advice for selecting equipment it's a good idea to understand that some of your responses will come from hunters, some from target shooters, and some from a combination of those interests. The long rang target shooters usually do a lot more shooting than those who only hunt and, in my experience, have need for more sophisticated equipment to develop "bug hole" accuracy at long distances. Some hunters, depending on the terrain they hunt, rarely even get a shot that's over 500 yards.

Again, an excellent point! For me, it's all about hunting. I do not compete, nor want to. I shoot targets strictly to be a better shooter in order to hunt. As I have been reading the parsing the responses, I too thought that the place some are answering from may be different then where I am.

I do not want to shoot at game at 1000 yards. Steel, yes, but game, no. And beyond that, other than a training facility, I don't have that opportunity.

Some of the places I plan on hunting in the next 1-2 years have shots that could go as long as you can imagine, but I am not that hunter, even if I had the skill, which I definitely do not.

So yeah, you raise a great point...do I need a 1600 yard RF? Considering people hunted without lasers forever, so clearly not. But is the ability to range that far for other purposes other than shooting...and to have the RF compensate for temp and pressure as well...is that worth the extra $180 it's going to cost me? That's the question. Compelling arguments have been made on both sides of the issue, no doubt.

I was hoping that the wealth of experience on this board would generally agree. Lots of really good thought provoking points and help that I really appreciate, but but they don't in this case so, ultimately, yeah, I'll have to get off the pot and make a decision!

 

[FearNoWind]

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f40/leica-1200-rangemaster-139056/

 

[FEENIX]

I can already predict the outcome of this thread. He'll buy the Leica 1000 to save a couple dollars. Then in a year or two he'll be trying to sell it to upgrade to the Leica 1600, but he will have trouble getting his money back out of the 1000 since everyone wants the 1600 just like him so he'll end up losing more money than if he had just went with the 1600 in the first place.....

Been there, done that with other optics...

LL! We can only provide sound advice based on personal experience but the OP has the ultimate decision and consequences associated with it.

My friend did exactly that a couple of years ago ... needless to say, I gave him the famous line ... "I told you so ...".

I've range mine beyond 2100 yard on objects ... @ $800 when purchased, that's under $0.40 per yard.

Last year, I ranged a cow elk from a herd at 1830 yards uphill (actually mountain). It took us nearly an hour to do our stalk. To make a long story short, I was blessed with a bull elk harvest at 931 yards with my .300 Win Mag pushing 190 Berger VLD at 3043 FPS under the Big Sky Country.

 

[MMERSS]

ADI-$150
Kestrell 2500- $150

The two combined will provide wind estimated, Absolute Pressure, Temperature, and Cos X for ballistics solutions at a cost of $300

Difference in price from a Leica 1000 to 1600b -$200
Kestrell 2000- $100

The two combined will provide wind estimated, Absolute Pressure, Temperature, and Cos X for ballistics solutions at a cost of $300

Want vs. need, hunting conditions and anticipated hunting conditions all dependent. It's our decision in the end. I often look at the opportunity for growth equating to expansion. There is a reason why most folks I know have upgraded to a 1600b and wish they had from the beginning…..growth and expansion. If there is not a need there is not a need, if there could be room for expansion and growth will current systems fit the bill?

 

[catorres1]

ADI-$150
Kestrell 2500- $150

The two combined will provide wind estimated, Absolute Pressure, Temperature, and Cos X for ballistics solutions at a cost of $300

Difference in price from a Leica 1000 to 1600b -$200
Kestrell 2000- $100

The two combined will provide wind estimated, Absolute Pressure, Temperature, and Cos X for ballistics solutions at a cost of $300

Want vs. need, hunting conditions and anticipated hunting conditions all dependent. It's our decision in the end. I often look at the opportunity for growth equating to expansion. There is a reason why most folks I know have upgraded to a 1600b and wish they had from the beginning…..growth and expansion. If there is not a need there is not a need, if there could be room for expansion and growth will current systems fit the bill?

Yes, definitely growth sometimes makes a perceived perfect solution obsolete. But your comment makes me think of this question in another way, and this is not rhetorical, but serious:

Other than the obvious (it's at 1600 yards!), when would the CRF 1000R need to be replaced, that is, at what point would it become obsolete vs the 1600? Is that trying to range an animal at 800 yards? 1000? Etc.

Also, two other questions.

What is an ADI?

And why do you list the Kestral as giving estimated wind?

Thanks!

 

[bigngreen]

When you need to upgrade LRF's shows up in two ways, one you simply grow beyond it and two your terrain defeats it.


I've ran a Leica 1200 for years, works great but you can get in situations like a whitetail standing in wheat stubble or your ranging at a very low angle or trying to range a stupid antelope, I've dang near worn the button of a 1200 begging for a range at 600 yards, yet in elk country banging an elk at 1000-1100 yards is not hard but they are in better ranging terrain typically.

 

[catorres1]

When you need to upgrade LRF's shows up in two ways, one you simply grow beyond it and two your terrain defeats it.


I've ran a Leica 1200 for years, works great but you can get in situations like a whitetail standing in wheat stubble or your ranging at a very low angle or trying to range a stupid antelope, I've dang near worn the button of a 1200 begging for a range at 600 yards, yet in elk country banging an elk at 1000-1100 yards is not hard but they are in better ranging terrain typically.

When you say the terrain defeats it, does the stronger laser of the 1600 do better under the conditions you describe, or were you thinking of moving from Leica to a Terrapin or something like that with a smaller beam dispersion?

Another way of asking would be do you think the 1600 would have done a better job for you than the 1200 you had, and if so what makes it work better?

On the outgrow, by this I assume you mean that you are now shooting beyond the 1k of the 1kR...I wonder how far the 1KR is capable of hitting targets like Javelina or Coyotes...realistically...

Thanks!

 

[bigngreen]

Ranges that I have to set my 1200 up on a bag and work for the range I can bang of hand with the 1600. I have steel set up on a berm on the range at 1027 yards and the ranging conditions suck with exception of early in the morning or late evening, my 1200 everything has to be right to get it, my 1600 I can wheel up and hit it every time all day, I don't HAVE to bag it till I range out in the 1600+ range this translates to getting ranges in less favorable conditions at all ranges. In short my 1600 burns my 1200 down!!

I use mine constantly, I'm always ranging potential shooting positions or just to know if I can't make that 1200 yard shot I can plan a shooting position and travel route or if it hits 1600 I know there is no way in heck I'm getting into position so I can change plans completely. Range is valuable information to have, the more you have the better!!
Having a solid range is something that you really don't want to fight, get the best tool you possibly can to eliminate that from your "what just happened" list after a poor shot on the range, you need to be fully engaged on wind and reading animal movement!!

 

[catorres1]

Okay, that's really helpful. An something I wondered about. So one could basically say the 1600 will not only range farther, but maybe it's great value in some cases is that it will range easier, more quickly and more certainly in more conditions. Which makes sense and provides value even when maybe I won't be shooting all that far.

Great answer, thanks for that!

 

[MMERSS]

Yes, definitely growth sometimes makes a perceived perfect solution obsolete. But your comment makes me think of this question in another way, and this is not rhetorical, but serious:

Other than the obvious (it's at 1600 yards!), when would the CRF 1000R need to be replaced, that is, at what point would it become obsolete vs the 1600? Is that trying to range an animal at 800 yards? 1000? Etc.

Also, two other questions.

What is an ADI?

And why do you list the Kestral as giving estimated wind?

Thanks!

Accuracy, centering your group on the intended target. Tools "assist" the long range hunter with determining a range of variables essential with estimating the centering of a shot on target.

Some of the common tools used to "assist" with the endeavor for accuracy: a rangefinder, wind meter, barometer, thermometer, hygrometer, angle degree indicator (ADI) and ballistics computer. The Kestrel being the most common weather station or meter used by long range hunters.

The Leica 1600b is four tools in one: a rangefinder, barometer, thermometer and a computer ADI
The Leica 1000 one tool: a rangefinder
The Leica 1000-R two tools: a rangefinder and ADI.

With some luck and timing I've seen used 1600b's listed for the same price as a new 1000-R.

With good conditions I've been able to range some objects around 150% the advertised range. With bad conditions only around 50% the advertised range.

As of date those interested in long range hunting requesting my personal assistance have no ethical issues with using "tools" to assist with achieve the most advantageous position with achieving the best accuracy possible. Why not strive for perfection with accuracy? Is a change with absolute pressure going to significantly reduce the ability to hit a 12" target at 500 yards? Probably not. But how about a 3" target?

The Leica 1600b provides multiple tools in one to include capability to range targets mid range under not the most ideal conditions.

 

[catorres1]

Thanks for the reply and information. That makes sense now, and the point you make in your last line...about ranging targets in midrange under not the most ideal conditions makes bellying up make more sense, at least to me.

Anyone have any ideas on the best place to look for the best prices? Does not seem like Leica has a lot of sales...everyone is also seemingly looked into minimum advertised prices 'MAP', apparently, as all prices everywhere I am seeing are identical.

That said, Cabelas has a coupon and some incentives that would get my price down to 730 after taxes, and I just got a coupon for signing up on another site for 10% off my purchase, so that would get me to 720.

A guy on this board had them for 650 plus shipping, but I JUST missed out....

 

[bigngreen]

I think I saw one for 700 on here.