Price Gougers

[pwrdbycotn]

By laws and a logical standpoint, you are correct. I myself can't think of a replacement word for Gouging other than maybe fleecing. Price gouging just works and is understood by most, whether out of context or not.
So, if a person or persons can get a steady supply of primers right now, and market them at 400-2000% above his cost, we are now going to label this as investing?
Lot of people in the shooting community feel supply is down, I am not in that group. Access to the supply is the disconnect here. People compete against bots set up for immediate buys when a retailer lists. As long as investors as I think you labeled them are controlling a certain pct of the supply, there is no stability. You either wait for the opportunity to buy at the new normal going rate, or pay 200 and up for a brick of primers.
Sadly, we find ourselves in this situation on the average every 12 yrs, of course we had the double whamy of the kenyon and Sandy Hook in 5 yrs.
Whether we use gouging or not, @L.Sherm is correct, we need to quit digging, And it is not buying primers or powder that have us in the cellar, it is buying ammo.
TV has us believing we can survive 20 firefights with our 9mm pistols, he shot my dog. And ducking under the window will save us. The average American does not have Seal Team 6's intel, most will never need even 1K of ammo, of any kind. If you are buying ammo not to practice with in times like this, I'm done.

Why shouldn't it be thought of as investing? There's nothing that says we can't, as individuals, use anything we want as investments, minus food, water and medicine. If someone is smart enough to see the coming ammo shortage and has the resources to use that to his or her advantage, I don't see why they can't put those tools to use.
Again, these items we're discussing are luxury items. They aren't vital to sustaining life.

 

[milo-2]

Why shouldn't it be thought of as investing? There's nothing that says we can't, as individuals, use anything we want as investments, minus food, water and medicine. If someone is smart enough to see the coming ammo shortage and has the resources to use that to his or her advantage, I don't see why they can't put those tools to use.
Again, these items we're discussing are luxury items. They aren't vital to sustaining life.

Where did I say you could not do this? If you came into 2020 with 1 million primers and decided to capitalize on the situation, by all means that is your right.
What I alluded too, is the disruption of the supply chain to keep prices inflated. And yes, I am smart enough to understand this is within the boundaries of our system.
I also said, it is up to the buyers to reel this in.

 

[milo-2]

I've got one last thing to say,

I am not going to let you retire just yet, I may need you. lol

 

[nmbarta]

What I alluded too, is the disruption of the supply chain to keep prices inflated

I'm not disagreeing with this statement, I was wondering if you had any actual proof of this or if it's speculation?

The reason I ask is I assumed that our local scheels was having a hard time getting ammo, but when I talked one of the guys in there about it he said "there's actually been really good supply, the problem is we've already sold more ammo in 2021 than we normally sell in a year" Primers and some powders are the hardest thing to get for them, which makes sense to me if this is happening everywhere. I would make the leap that most of the powder and primers are going into loaded ammo.

We have somewhere between 5 and 6 million new gun owners, which are new ammo owners as well, and we have added somewhere between 20 and 30 million new guns our private arsenal in the US alone, most of which probably needed some ammo to go with them.

Guess what's not hard to find right now?......Guns!!!!! In 2008 there was literally a waiting list at scheels to buy an ar-15, and you would have to wait for weeks to get one, and if you happened to have one that you were willing to part with, it was worth about 1200.00 bucks...any cheap junk. The manufacturers stepped up their tooling knowing this would happen again, and still today you can walk into scheels and buy an ar-15 for 700 bucks. They found a way to meet the demand and prices on ar-15's have remained relatively stable. Hopefully the ammo manufactures do the same thing the firearms manufacturers did and they step up their game to meet the demand. Hopefully some new ammo manufactures invest as well.

With record sales comes record profits, with record profits comes record taxes....unless, they invest back into that company. My guess is that most if not all ammo manufacturers will be investing in their process. Who knows, this could be a good thing in the long run. If it wasn't for 2008, I bet you couldn't even find an ar-15 right now.

Do you think ammo manufacturers like to see a bunch of scabs making more money on their product than they do? I doubt it.

 

[Elk Hunter 338]

This is how one post's in question started

I have an Remington lss in 375 RUM, with dies brass and bullets for reloading. I know this is not gunbroker but a used one sold for $3550.

Would sell shipped in hard case for $3,000

The problem is in this case is he found a 375 rum LSS and wants too sell then found said same item on gun broker that sold for $3550 ... that's a load of trash ..everyone knows that there are tons of fraud accounts created on gunbroker by family members or friends to drive the price up!! who in their right mind would pay 3500 bucks for an LSS in any chambering that's been altered and isn't new in box with tags! ***

 

[ButterBean]

The problem is in this case is he found a 375 rum LSS and wants too sell then found said same item on gun broker that sold for $3550 ... that's a load of trash ..everyone knows that there are tons of fraud accounts created on gunbroker by family members or friends to drive the price up!! who in their right mind would pay 3500 bucks for an LSS in any chambering that's been altered and isn't new in box with tags!***

That was what everyone thought, then the OP started getting all bent up with all the usual excuses so everyone just stopped commenting per Len's warning, The OP bumped the thread this morning but it's dead in the water now and he's on the list for a lot of folks, I hope it was worth it to him

 

[milo-2]

I'm not disagreeing with this statement, I was wondering if you had any actual proof of this or if it's speculation?

The reason I ask is I assumed that our local scheels was having a hard time getting ammo, but when I talked one of the guys in there about it he said "there's actually been really good supply, the problem is we've already sold more ammo in 2021 than we normally sell in a year" Primers and some powders are the hardest thing to get for them, which makes sense to me if this is happening everywhere. I would make the leap that most of the powder and primers are going into loaded ammo.

We have somewhere between 5 and 6 million new gun owners, which are new ammo owners as well, and we have added somewhere between 20 and 30 million new guns our private arsenal in the US alone, most of which probably needed some ammo to go with them.

Guess what's not hard to find right now?......Guns!!!!! In 2008 there was literally a waiting list at scheels to buy an ar-15, and you would have to wait for weeks to get one, and if you happened to have one that you were willing to part with, it was worth about 1200.00 bucks...any cheap junk. The manufacturers stepped up their tooling knowing this would happen again, and still today you can walk into scheels and buy an ar-15 for 700 bucks. They found a way to meet the demand and prices on ar-15's have remained relatively stable. Hopefully the ammo manufactures do the same thing the firearms manufacturers did and they step up their game to meet the demand. Hopefully some new ammo manufactures invest as well.

With record sales comes record profits, with record profits comes record taxes....unless, they invest back into that company. My guess is that most if not all ammo manufacturers will be investing in their process. Who knows, this could be a good thing in the long run. If it wasn't for 2008, I bet you couldn't even find an ar-15 right now.

Do you think ammo manufacturers like to see a bunch of scabs making more money on their product than they do? I doubt it.

I would say I am leaning more on the side of speculation, not sure how a guy could secure proof.
Let's use primers, if one thinks about it, let's say 50% are being bought for consumer use at "normal" prices, and 50% are being bought for resale at inflated prices, Giving the average American shooter the nod here, what pct of the primers are now off limits to the average guy. I am not paying and will wait. The people over paying are a small pct in the grand pic. I actually don't know anyone personally over paying, yet people still are.
One thing most of us as consumers can never do is backtrack price increases, manufacturing level, wholesale-distributor level, or retail, or combined.
What I have seen for sale from reputable places is a 10-30% increase on powder and primers, given the current climate, way acceptable.
I have a friend that manufactures ammo, so I get info, may be safe to say you can buy primers at Scheels right now cheaper than his costs going through a distributor. One thing he has though is the ability to buy 100,000 times more than you, and have the ability to be restocked. Prices get passed along. Easy to deal with, key here is not to overbuy at the wrong time.
On your final comment, just say Vista outdoors controls almost all aspects of the cost of their ammo except powder, probably a miniscule cost to them even now. Well, they are not alone here as giants in the industry, yet cannot control the prices because they cannot produce enough to satisfy the demand. < So that puts us in the vicious cycle again, only a certain amount of reasonably priced ammo is for sale. How does S-G ammo need 45 a box, when Sportmans and Scheels need 18? S-G probably moves 100 times more ammo in 1 yr.
You know the picture I am painting here, if you are a guy making money on your investment, I do not care, 2-8lb jugs of RL16 and I am set for 6yrs, I am not engaging.
So I really should not be vocal about it, other than to point out that as consumers, we control our own destiny here, choose wisely.

 

[milo-2]

I'm not disagreeing with this statement, I was wondering if you had any actual proof of this or if it's speculation?

The reason I ask is I assumed that our local scheels was having a hard time getting ammo, but when I talked one of the guys in there about it he said "there's actually been really good supply, the problem is we've already sold more ammo in 2021 than we normally sell in a year" Primers and some powders are the hardest thing to get for them, which makes sense to me if this is happening everywhere. I would make the leap that most of the powder and primers are going into loaded ammo.

We have somewhere between 5 and 6 million new gun owners, which are new ammo owners as well, and we have added somewhere between 20 and 30 million new guns our private arsenal in the US alone, most of which probably needed some ammo to go with them.

Guess what's not hard to find right now?......Guns!!!!! In 2008 there was literally a waiting list at scheels to buy an ar-15, and you would have to wait for weeks to get one, and if you happened to have one that you were willing to part with, it was worth about 1200.00 bucks...any cheap junk. The manufacturers stepped up their tooling knowing this would happen again, and still today you can walk into scheels and buy an ar-15 for 700 bucks. They found a way to meet the demand and prices on ar-15's have remained relatively stable. Hopefully the ammo manufactures do the same thing the firearms manufacturers did and they step up their game to meet the demand. Hopefully some new ammo manufactures invest as well.

With record sales comes record profits, with record profits comes record taxes....unless, they invest back into that company. My guess is that most if not all ammo manufacturers will be investing in their process. Who knows, this could be a good thing in the long run. If it wasn't for 2008, I bet you couldn't even find an ar-15 right now.

Do you think ammo manufacturers like to see a bunch of scabs making more money on their product than they do? I doubt it.

Another thing too here, this post is about gouging within the community. We are not a utopia, no matter anyone's thoughts.
The average shooter probably didn't think in 2018 that Trump may not get re-elected and stockpiled components to Invest in. When a guy sees an opportunity to dump 20K primers at ridiculous prices, it is probably just trickle down crap and for the most part, harmless. The cumulative affect of such actions becomes a force though, and yet again, we control the time span to reel it back.
And our local sportsman's warehouse was void of any gun I would buy 2 weeks ago, cupboards were bare.

 

[ButterBean]

Another thing too here, this post is about gouging within the community. We are not a utopia, no matter anyone's thoughts.
The average shooter probably didn't think in 2018 that Trump may not get re-elected and stockpiled components to Invest in. When a guy sees an opportunity to dump 20K primers at ridiculous prices, it is probably just trickle down crap and for the most part, harmless. The cumulative affect of such actions becomes a force though, and yet again, we control the time span to reel it back.
And our local sportsman's warehouse was void of any gun I would buy 2 weeks ago, cupboards were bare.

Thank You for pointing that out, I love how everything on ths forum gets turned in to a dumpster fire

 

[milo-2]

Thank You for pointing that out, I love how everything on ths forum gets turned in to a dumpster fire

I always have a can of gas in my back pocket for occasions like this, lol

There are just times rationale disappears, on all fronts.
Not fair to compare anything to the oil industry to any other industry, but it seems our cycles mimic boom-busts of oil. Remedies for each are worlds apart though.

 

[capona]

as consumers, we control our own destiny here, choose wisely.

Good point. Spend your money as you see fit. Prepare for the high cycles ( Obama/ Biden) by buying when it's a low cycle and cheaper ( Trump). Luck favors the prepared and then you won't have to deal with the gouger.

 

[Wedgy]

This 10oz can of Blackhorn 209 sold $272 plus $50 shipping + tax which is 10% for me so that puts it at ~$352 for me. 10oz is 4,375 grains and the load for my Paramount Pro is ~110 grains which is about 40 shots which come out to about $8.80 a load !!
Plus ~ $1.50 a bullet and a primer it will cost about $10.30 per shot !! Who thought muzzleloading would be a rich mans sport. Blackhorn is a unicorn for high pressure ML's, there really isn't another powder like it. Funny because I am fully stocked with rifle, pistol, and shotgun supplies but I just got a muzzleloader to take advantage of an early season CO hunt. What if I drew a 10 year plus tag ? This powder is currently out of production but should be back in supply(maybe) in March.
I have a lot of components I won't be using but hazmat shipping kills the deal. I offered a bunch of lead turkey loads to a member for free but he couldn't come up with a way to ship them.
I hope this ends soon but I doubt it.
BTW the last 3 times I went to my range it was empty and the ground is bare of any brass.

 

[Pinoniper]

I get a lot more agitated by someone price-gouging a true necessity such as food or basic fuel, particularly in a crisis, than I do about someone asking a high price for something we all might desire, but do not truly need.

 

[davidu]

I'm a little torn on the whole gouge issue.. I recently sold 3 bricks of 450's for $275 a piece. All to the same individual. Who had at least 30,000 primers already "stored" in his gun safe, rarely reloads, and would definitely buy more tomorrow for the same price. Also, he isnt going to sell ANY of them, he wants to have the ability reload even if there are no more primers. Money isn't a big object for this guy. SO, is this gouging? I also sold a brick to my brother in law (who repeatedly ignored my warnings for a whole 9 months to stock up) for $30. He needed them.

Other thoughts: at some point, the supply IS low, or not there, and to people they actually ARE worth the inflated price. Is it still gouging? I mean, I haven't seen any M1 Garands for $300 lately... are the people that sell them in excess of $1000 gouging?

Just some thoughts... it DOES rub me the wrong way when people buy EVERYTHING up, JUST to resell it at a higher price. The primers I sold were from my personal stash. I certainly didn't buy them with the intention to "flip" for a profit.

Another example: a guy loses his job and needs money for bills, repairs, food on the table, etc. Sells his primers for the going, inflated rate for some quick, needed cash. Is he gouging? Is gouging based off of intent, or is it a reflection of the price alone?

Anyway, flame away if you like. I am just not sure I entirely agree with everything priced high as "gouging", although I can't deny there is a LOT of that going on. It seems a lititle hard to define but one of those "know it when you see it" things.


PS: I also do appreciate this forum, and appreciate that it doesn't have the same vibe as another, also very popular gun forum I'm on, on occasion. The "bro" attitude is just too much for me there. Also appreciate that it doesn't have the GunJoker vibe. I'm on a classified website for my state, and the insane prices people are asking for a lot of stuff IS definitely off putting. And I have never listed items HERE at an inflated rate. So, even though I've sold primers at a greatly inflated price tag, I DO appreciate the OP' sentiment.

I just couldn't agree more. It's definitely not all bad or all good. Quick example. I started reloading last fall and have needed primers. I've had to resort to buying some on GB. Bid the 3x price to get some from a fella that sent me the wrong brand. He explained he is selling his just passed father's collection of reloading supplies to help his Mom. Sent the right primers and insisted I keep the others since I wanted to s3nd the others back so he could sell them for his Mom. I have a hard time begrudging the guy.