Precision Hand Loading For Long Range-Chapter One: Brass Sort & Prep By Tres MonCeret

[SHRTSHTR]

Re: Precision Hand Loading For Long Range-Chapter One: Brass Sort & Prep By Tres MonC

Tresmon,

Thanks for the article. I have followed your 5 part series over on "Snipershide" I have to say that your instructions on Precision Reloading is the best I have seen. Your instructions are very straight forward and very easy to follow with the right tools.

I for one would like to see this article and the rest to follow moved to the reloading section as a sticky.

Thanks again for sharing with LRH

Ray

 

[tresmon]

Re: Precision Hand Loading For Long Range-Chapter One: Brass Sort & Prep By Tres MonC

ODav,

The article has 5 chapters, and yes I address run-out of the case/bullet.

My HF ultra sonic cleaner has been used for about 10 months without a single hick up, hassle or headache.


Per sorting brass: The very fact that your doing it is the important part, not HOW your doing it. I sort mine when I first get my hands on it, before any prep work or firing and I'm satisfied with that. Others take a little different slant and thats fine- as long as they are doing it.

Yes, filling each individual case with liquid, and then measuring the weight of the liquid is the ultimate sort for intern volume of cases, but is gross overkill unless one is seeking high precision with ultra high capacity cases: 50 BMG bench rest.

No need to reiterate what PHORWATH said- all good point there however I disagree with one statement he makes:

""Problem with weighing cases is the weights will change due to variable external case dimensions which has nothing to do with interior volumetric capacity.""

I disagree because we are dealing in the end with tubing, and thus a shift in external dimension demands a shift in internal dimension. So internal capacity is a correlation to dimension, and vice versa.






CHAS-
I put the cleaner in a high traffic area of my home- the corner counter in my kitchen. I bump up the timer to max setting every so often as I walk by. I run my brass in it until they are as clean as I wish them to be. Depending on all the variables, this is 20 minutes to an hour.

 

[Pdvdh]

Re: Precision Hand Loading For Long Range-Chapter One: Brass Sort & Prep By Tres MonC

ODav,
No need to reiterate what PHORWATH said- all good point there however I disagree with one statement he makes:

""Problem with weighing cases is the weights will change due to variable external case dimensions which has nothing to do with interior volumetric capacity.""

I disagree because we are dealing in the end with tubing, and thus a shift in external dimension demands a shift in internal dimension. So internal capacity is a correlation to dimension, and vice versa.

Tres,
I have no problem agreeing to disagree and appreciate your take on it. I have experienced different exterior case dimensions on the same lots/brands of brass casings. For example, when the extractor groove is a different size (width or depth) on one brass casing versus the next. Some cases will slide into the shell holder and some won't. No way do I believe the notion that such a difference in the exterior dimensions of the casing, which will be captured as a different weight, can dependably and accurately relate to the interior casing volume. For illustrative purposes only, this variable would be no different than taking a grinder to the exterior of the case head and removing some of the brass, weighing the case, and based on the differing weight, concluding the interior case volume was now different than it was before grinding some of the brass off the exterior of the case head. The interior case volume has not been modified, however the case weight has been. If the interior and exterior shape and dimensions of the brass casings were identical, and the density of the brass remained consistent, then the correlation of casing weight to interior volume could be predictable and consistent. I simply contend that exterior and/or interior casing shapes, dimensions, and tolerances are variable to the point that conclusions about internal case capacity based on casing weight lack validity.

The following link to another Thread on LRH includes a Post with table of case weights and interior volume measurements. No consistent relationship between case weight to interior case volume could be established. Here's what that Forum member concluded.

Weighting cases on the assumption that there is a constant correlation between case weight and internal volume is a complete waste of time that is based on an erroneous assumption. Others factors such as dimension of base and extractor groove are significant confounding variables.

And here's the link to the Thread titled 'Weighing components'.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f28/weighing-components-54810/index5.html#post377463

 

[Chas1]

Re: Precision Hand Loading For Long Range-Chapter One: Brass Sort & Prep By Tres MonC

Phorwath, I like the idea of sorting brass based on weighing the amount of liquid the case holds. My question is: are you first weighing the case and then filling the case up with water and weighing it again and then subtracting to get the weight on the amount of water it holds...is this your method?

 

[Pdvdh]

Re: Precision Hand Loading For Long Range-Chapter One: Brass Sort & Prep By Tres MonC

Phorwath, I like the idea of sorting brass based on weighing the amount of liquid the case holds. My question is: are you first weighing the case and then filling the case up with water and weighing it again and then subtracting to get the weight on the amount of water it holds...is this your method?

Hi Chas1,
Yes, that is the method on a fired case with the spent primer left in place.

Truth is I don't do this as a matter of practice because it's a long tedious process. As Tres suggested, I also simply weigh brass cases as a compromised effort to ID and sort brass, but I only expect to be able to identify gross outliers using this technique. The direct correlation of brass weight to interior case volume is simply lacking for purposes of accurately identify small variances of internal case capacity... in my opinion.

My practice is as follows: I'll weigh prepped empty brass and if I find 3 or 5 brass cases out of 100 with brass weights significantly different that the remaining 95 to 97 brass, I'll examine those outliers and see if there's anything obviously amiss. I once found a large piece of curly-qued brass inside a case that caused it to weigh significantly more than the average recorded weight. I never could figure out how it might have gotten in there, but there it was. I snaked that curled shaving of brass out with a skinny pick and then that case weighed about the same as the rest in that batch. So there's one example where simply weighing the cases led to identification of a reject casing. Sometimes I'll reject and discard these outliers. Sometimes I'll mark these outliers and use them for clean bore fouling shots only. Or I may, in the future, then take these cases and compare water-filled capacity (weight) to a couple of the 'normal' brass-weighed casings from that batch.

However, if I was a seriously competing in competition where 1/2" at 1000 yds was the difference between winning and losing, I would weight sort my brass by water capacity, knowing that water capacity is a true and accurate reflection of interior case volume. Sorting by brass weights does have the potential to identify a seriously reject piece of brass, as in the personal example/experience I provided above. But it's an inferior technique for purposes of identifying minor, yet common, variances of interior case volume.

Hope this helps explain my point-of-view.

 

[Chas1]

Re: Precision Hand Loading For Long Range-Chapter One: Brass Sort & Prep By Tres MonC

phorwath, thanks for the response. Your instance with the brass curly found is a good example. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Jinx-)]

Re: Precision Hand Loading For Long Range-Chapter One: Brass Sort & Prep By Tres MonC

Tres, thank you for the article very much enjoyed reading it, there is one thing that stumble me, that's about trim length "trim your brass just short of this measurement instead of "book trim to" specs." " so I posted in reloading section how short is short? Just realize that I could ask you directly so how short would you recommend to trim cases after measurement had been taken?

Thank you...

 

[tresmon]

Re: Precision Hand Loading For Long Range-Chapter One: Brass Sort & Prep By Tres MonC

Hey thanks for the kind words!

Happy to help,
Tres

 

[tresmon]

Re: Precision Hand Loading For Long Range-Chapter One: Brass Sort & Prep By Tres MonC

Actually- with a factory chamber and most all chambers your brass will be worn out before it gets close to your chambers actual max length dimension. But I'd stay good .020" short...

Tres

 

[Mike6158]

Re: Precision Hand Loading For Long Range-Chapter One: Brass Sort & Prep By Tres MonC

Thanks for a well written article. I'm looking forward to reading the rest.

 

[loaders_loft]

Re: Precision Hand Loading For Long Range-Chapter One: Brass Sort & Prep By Tres MonC

I just sorted 102 pcs new Norma 300 wsm brass. 92 pieces were within 2 grains of eachother; I'd say that's pretty good QC! I'll use the extreme high and low brass as foulers, and then arranged the rest into two boxes by weight. Essentially, I've got 2 boxes of 45 within 1 grain + 5 foulers in each box. This is half the tolerance listed in the article.

Thanks for the advice on sorting the brass. Now, on to sorting bullets by bearing surface length. I've got 1000 scenars to sort through, this should be interesting...

 

[Chas1]

Re: Precision Hand Loading For Long Range-Chapter One: Brass Sort & Prep By Tres MonC

Loaders_loft, scenars-what are you using them for and what grain are they?

 

[loaders_loft]

Re: Precision Hand Loading For Long Range-Chapter One: Brass Sort & Prep By Tres MonC

I've got two different projects going on, one is a 7wsm that I'm planning to fireform 300 wsm brass for, and the other is a 260 rem heavy match rifle, that will shoot the 139 scenars, only for tactical match shooting. I'm waiting on my 2nd comparator set from Midway, then I'll start doing the length sorting.

I also intend to sort my supply of 168 berger VLD's. This may explain the erratic fliers and inconsistent groups I was getting last year, which led me to dropping this bullet and staying with the 150 ballistic tip for my 2009 antelope hunt. I'm just concerned about chasing these loose ends too far with my 7wsm, and burning up the barrel in the process. Anyway, I can probably sort them and find out what I need to know, whether or not I shoot them is a different story. What I do know is the forster die set I'm using gives fantastic repeatability on seating depth.

 

[ODAVID]

Re: Precision Hand Loading For Long Range-Chapter One: Brass Sort & Prep By Tres MonC

hello Loaders-----,
We all experience flyers inspite of our best efforts at weighing bullets, exact measuring of powder etc. Perhaps we could get Tres to discuss the neck tension relationship to flyers situation. Perhaps even using powdered mica could create a more consistent neck to bullet tension.


Frequent flyers are no fun unless you get a free ride.
ODAVID