Newbie Shooter no experience MOA vs Milrad

[westcliffe01]

The absolute most important thing is to make sure that the markings on the reticle are the same unit as the markings on the turrets. It is quite common on cheaper scopes to have turrets marked in MOA and a reticle with mill dots in Mill. An awful combination.

If you spot your own shots and see where the impact is relative to the reticle, it will enable you to either hold over with the reticle or dial in a correction using the turret. Not having the same uits will drive you crazy. Yet many Bushnell scopes have just such a system.

 

[CleanShot]

The absolute most important thing is to make sure that the markings on the reticle are the same unit as the markings on the turrets. It is quite common on cheaper scopes to have turrets marked in MOA and a reticle with mill dots in Mill. An awful combination.

If you spot your own shots and see where the impact is relative to the reticle, it will enable you to either hold over with the reticle or dial in a correction using the turret. Not having the same uits will drive you crazy. Yet many Bushnell scopes have just such a system.

Yep I saw a TiborasaurusRex video where he recommended that so I've been paying close attention.

I have a SWFA SS 3-15x42 that's mrad/mrad. The Sightron SIII FFP, which is going to get returned I hope, is mrad/mrad but I hate the FFP reticle on it. It's impossible to see the reticle at 6x and it doesn't have illumination like the Vortex PST for example. So while I'm doing the return I'm reevaluating my decisions on MRAD vs MOA and FFP vs SFP. Then look for a scope that meets my goals that is sub <$1200

 

[westcliffe01]

Also make sure you get a scope with parallax adjustment. Before I got my first PST I got a Minox with a 3-15x magnification range and no side focus. Well, the scope had a terrible parallax problem and as a result shot awful groups on a known good rifle, even at 100 yards, which is the usual distance that parallax is corrected for. Since that experience, I will never again own a scope without parallax adjustment. I guess a single magnification scope should theoretically not need it...

 

[CleanShot]

Mind blowing but I finally made a decision. I got a great price on the PST. There seems to be a strong market for them used. I'm going to try it out and see how I like it. If all goes well I'll still get the SWFA during their Black Friday sale. Do an scope exchange and buy a 223 (or 22-250 or 260 if I want a more fun caliber) for the vortex. Nice and cheap to shoot a 223 and doesn't need a nice scope and will never be a field rifle. If not I'll just sell it and call it a day. Just feel like I'm in analysis paralysis and nothing will get me experience like trial and error as much as I wanted to avoid it.

 

[westcliffe01]

Prior to getting my first PST I had 3 Nikon Monarch 2 scopes with the duplex reticle. When I asked about the PST scopes, everyone told me that coming from the Nikon I would not be disappointed. And I was not. I had already been hunting coyotes for a few years and my experience suggested that the 4-16x50 FFP was the right choice and it still is for that role. I do own a 6x24x50 FFP and it is more limited due to the 6x min magnification at the bottom and the small eye pupil at 24x. I likely would not use more than 20-22x. However, if I had the chance to hunt big game at longer distance I would likely be glad to have the bit of extra magnification available.

The 4-16x50 resides on my 243 AI and the 6-24x50 is on my 6.5x284. My 4-16x50 Nikon lives on my "training rifle" a 308 with a 26" varmint contour Shilen select match barrel. I also have a 4-16x42 HST which is on my 26" barreled 1:8 twist 223 (setting up for 80gr Bergers).

I have not yet needed the illumination, I would be more concerned with what is beyond the target than seeing the reticle... Unless you absolutely need the illumination, the HST scopes offer everything the PST has for less cost and equivalent turrets and zero stop (shim) system). CameralandNY frequently has demo scopes for big discounts. All my PST scopes were demo models.

 

[CleanShot]

Prior to getting my first PST I had 3 Nikon Monarch 2 scopes with the duplex reticle. When I asked about the PST scopes, everyone told me that coming from the Nikon I would not be disappointed. And I was not. I had already been hunting coyotes for a few years and my experience suggested that the 4-16x50 FFP was the right choice and it still is for that role. I do own a 6x24x50 FFP and it is more limited due to the 6x min magnification at the bottom and the small eye pupil at 24x. I likely would not use more than 20-22x. However, if I had the chance to hunt big game at longer distance I would likely be glad to have the bit of extra magnification available.

The 4-16x50 resides on my 243 AI and the 6-24x50 is on my 6.5x284. My 4-16x50 Nikon lives on my "training rifle" a 308 with a 26" varmint contour Shilen select match barrel. I also have a 4-16x42 HST which is on my 26" barreled 1:8 twist 223 (setting up for 80gr Bergers).

I have not yet needed the illumination, I would be more concerned with what is beyond the target than seeing the reticle... Unless you absolutely need the illumination, the HST scopes offer everything the PST has for less cost and equivalent turrets and zero stop (shim) system). CameralandNY frequently has demo scopes for big discounts. All my PST scopes were demo models.

I got the PST brand spanking new for $10 more than the demo currently is at camera land. Can't much argue with that.

 

[Barrelnut]

Cleanshot, did you go SFP or FFP on the PST? Don't leave us hanging on that one.

 

[CleanShot]

Cleanshot, did you go SFP or FFP on the PST? Don't leave us hanging on that one.

I went with FFP. I'm too addicted to the mysticism behind it (for now).

 

[CleanShot]

My 4-16x50 Nikon lives on my "training rifle" a 308 with a 26" varmint contour Shilen select match barrel.

Isn't a 308 a relatively heavy caliber for training? Not to mention expensive to shoot?

I would have thought you're 6.5 would have been your training rifle. But what do I know I'm totally new at this.

 

[westcliffe01]

The barrel life on the 243AI and 6.5x284 may only be 1200 - 1500 rounds. But a 308 will last a lot longer. In addition, 308 bullets of high quality are plentiful and relatively cheap (175gr SMK were sold for a long time as a Grafs branded bullet). I got LC12LR brass from Wideners for 20-35c per shell (sniper brass without crimped primers).

So, the answer is that the 308 is cheaper to shoot, in my case 0.25MOA, has decent ballistics, but not super good, so needs to be corrected for drop and wind (training). It will also last a long time. And yes, it has some recoil which makes it harder to shoot well (practice).

Of course I periodically check zero and grouping on the others and my 243 AI is always dead nuts and no coyote has taken a step after collecting a 95gr Berger at 2500-3200fps...

The less accurate your rifle, the longer it will take to notice a degradation from barrel wear. But if you are at less than 0.5MOA they certainly do not last forever before it opens up to 3/4" and then 1". You can tell when it is going. And the above assumes you stay on top of seating depth as the throat wears out...

 

[CleanShot]

The barrel life on the 243AI and 6.5x284 may only be 1200 - 1500 rounds. But a 308 will last a lot longer. In addition, 308 bullets of high quality are plentiful and relatively cheap (175gr SMK were sold for a long time as a Grafs branded bullet). I got LC12LR brass from Wideners for 20-35c per shell (sniper brass without crimped primers).

So, the answer is that the 308 is cheaper to shoot, in my case 0.25MOA, has decent ballistics, but not super good, so needs to be corrected for drop and wind (training). It will also last a long time. And yes, it has some recoil which makes it harder to shoot well (practice).

Of course I periodically check zero and grouping on the others and my 243 AI is always dead nuts and no coyote has taken a step after collecting a 95gr Berger at 2500-3200fps...

The less accurate your rifle, the longer it will take to notice a degradation from barrel wear. But if you are at less than 0.5MOA they certainly do not last forever before it opens up to 3/4" and then 1". You can tell when it is going. And the above assumes you stay on top of seating depth as the throat wears out...

The more I read what you guys have to say the more I realize how little I know about anything. So was my 243 as practice rifle a bad choice? I wanted something with less recoil so I didn't develop a flinch.

 

[westcliffe01]

If you don't load it super hot, it will last longer. But of course with a hunting rifle one wants to be as effective as possible so I try to load for the highest speed node that is accurate. Then I am shooting some of the heaviest for caliber bullets I can for the best BC.

A general rule is that the smaller the bore and the bigger the cartridge the shorter the barrel life. 6mm (243) is just slightly bigger than 5.56 (223) but will take 41gr of powder vs 23gr. 7.62 (308) is quite a bit bigger in diameter with a similar case capacity. 8mm Mauser (7.92x57) is even lower in pressure than a 308, but the choice of bullets is not nearly as good as a 308.

Not to worry though, it is unlikely that the factory barrel on your 243 will be optimal, so practice with it and then replace it with a good match barrel with a 1:8 twist rate so it will shoot the 105gr Bergers. My Savage 243 with its factory 1:9.25 twist could not even shoot the 95gr Bergers worth a crap. The best it could do was the Hornady 95gr SST (an Ok hunting bullet but not the best BC).

The 243AI chamber will accept about 10% more powder than a regular 243 chambering and that does not help barrel life either.
http://www.6mmbr.com/243Win.html

 

[CleanShot]

Thanks for all the info!

 

[Barrelnut]

Not to worry though, it is unlikely that the factory barrel on your 243 will be optimal, so practice with it and then replace it with a good match barrel with a 1:8 twist rate so it will shoot the 105gr Bergers. My Savage 243 with its factory 1:9.25 twist could not even shoot the 95gr Bergers worth a crap. The best it could do was the Hornady 95gr SST (an Ok hunting bullet but not the best BC).[/URL]

When you get to this point with the Savage .243. Try Hornady 105 A-max before you pull the barrel. I think you'll find they shoot exceptionally well from the Savage 1-9.25 barrel. Mine shoots them very very well. It's a know good heavy bullet from that twist.