New Rifle Recommendations -- Help me!!

[greenejc]

The best snipers of civil war era were picking individual targets at that distance. No, there weren't using standard muskets.

yep. He really doesn't know a lot about snipers, long range matches, the Army sniping and shooting teams, the Marine sniping and shooting teams, the Creedmoor matches or the Civil War snipers, Indian War snipers, WWI or WWII ect. snipers. Carlos Hathcock probably never had a lucky shot in his life. He made the 2500 yard (i said meter before but I'm pretty sure it was in yards) three times. He used a specially machined mount which was attached to the .50 Browning HB machine gun and mounted a 20 power Unertl scope. He zeroed it at 2500 yards on a hillside across from his firebase because the range matched the part of the Ho Che Min trail he was interdicting, and he shot an ammo carrier on the trail. First he shot his bicycle and then he shot him when the carrier fired (far out of range) at the base. A few days later, he shot a NVR who walked up and exposed himself on the same hill where he had zeroed the .50. As to 1,000 yard shots, maybe he should review the history of the Camp Perry matches (which Hathcock won in 1967, I think). I do know Carlos used a 300WM for that 1,000 yard match, and on the last day he hit 7 V's (center of the bullseye; about a 12" circle with a V in it) to win. He was shooting in a 20 mph full value gusting wind. He recorded several 1,000+ kills in Vietnam with a model 70 in 30-06. There were several other snipers in both the Marines and the Army who did the same. This is a matter of record. All the kills and ranges were verified. Berdan had several snipers in both of his companies who made shots past 800 yards at Confederate officers during the Civil War that were verified, too. They're recorded in the Army's official histories. And yes, Billy Dixon got lucky, and he said so. But he took two ranging shots with the borrowed 50-90 Sharps first, so it wasn't that lucky. I would love to have a Sharps in 45-120 or a Whitworth rifle to play with.

 

[Sanford338]

Hello all,

I am planning to be in the market for a new rifle soon and need some recommendations...

My budget is right around $2500 (including optic), however, am willing to stretch that out a bit if it is a make or break deal.

This rifle will be for my big game hunts (elk, mule deer, black bear), so am thinking I'll stay with a 300WM, however, am always open to other suggestions.

What rifle/rifle builder recommendations do you all have?

Thanks in advance.

My elk Guns are 2.. even though I'd wouldn't hesitate using my 257 Wby MK5 RC...
338 RUM & my 30-378 Wby if I'm chasing elk only. Mule deer, my 257 and or my 300Win .. black beer any of the above mentioned calibers.. really so many calibers to choose from, even the new ones. Find one you have confidence in and shoot well... and put one in the boiler room! Good luck!!

 

[greenejc]

Hathcock taped an 8x scope on top of a ma duece and got lucky. The second battle of Adobe walls was a lark. That dude shot into a group of more than a thousand people and hit one.

100 years later in the Vietnam War, thousand yard consistency was still out of reach. You can find anecdotes to make any point, but the reality is that the consistency required to make 1,000y hits on man sized targets with a shoulder fired rifle with repeatability on a battlefield was born in our lifetimes.

I don't know why you think that. They were using the M1 Garand at Camp Perry and hitting at that distance pretty well before they went to Remington and Winchester bolt guns in 300WM around 1958 or so. The matches ranged from 100, 200 and 600 yard matches with open sights to around 800, 900 and 1000 yards for the long range matches with scoped rifles. For that matter, the Creedmoor matches of 1874 and on used tang peep sights and black powder Sharps and Remington Rolling blocks at 800 yards, 900 yards and 1000 yards. The bulls eyes on these targets were either 24" like Camp Perry or 36" I think, while the target was around maybe 10 feet wide and tall. Hathcock actually designed and machined a mount for the receiver on the Ma deuce just for a steady way to mount a 20 power Unertl scope on the .50 he used, and he selected the barrel he used for exceptional first shot accuracy. All this stuff is documented. The Camp Perry 1,000 yard matches have been around for about 120 years in one form or another, and hark back to the Creedmoor matches shot in New York beginning in 1874. Sharps and Remington made special rifles for the shooting team to compete against the Irish team for the first Creedmoor match.

 

[KS2506]

7MM STW, in an older, before FN, Model 70 SS or a Sako 995 (TRG-S). Both will have 26" barrels and from my experience, will be very accurate rifles. The reason I recommend the older Model 70 is I have never had one that was made by FN.

 

[Deleted member 115360]

yep. He really doesn't know a lot about snipers, long range matches, the Army sniping and shooting teams, the Marine sniping and shooting teams, the Creedmoor matches or the Civil War snipers, Indian War snipers, WWI or WWII ect. snipers. Carlos Hathcock probably never had a lucky shot in his life. He made the 2500 yard (i said meter before but I'm pretty sure it was in yards) three times. He used a specially machined mount which was attached to the .50 Browning HB machine gun and mounted a 20 power Unertl scope. He zeroed it at 2500 yards on a hillside across from his firebase because the range matched the part of the Ho Che Min trail he was interdicting, and he shot an ammo carrier on the trail. First he shot his bicycle and then he shot him when the carrier fired (far out of range) at the base. A few days later, he shot a NVR who walked up and exposed himself on the same hill where he had zeroed the .50. As to 1,000 yard shots, maybe he should review the history of the Camp Perry matches (which Hathcock won in 1967, I think). I do know Carlos used a 300WM for that 1,000 yard match, and on the last day he hit 7 V's (center of the bullseye; about a 12" circle with a V in it) to win. He was shooting in a 20 mph full value gusting wind. He recorded several 1,000+ kills in Vietnam with a model 70 in 30-06. There were several other snipers in both the Marines and the Army who did the same. This is a matter of record. All the kills and ranges were verified. Berdan had several snipers in both of his companies who made shots past 800 yards at Confederate officers during the Civil War that were verified, too. They're recorded in the Army's official histories. And yes, Billy Dixon got lucky, and he said so. But he took two ranging shots with the borrowed 50-90 Sharps first, so it wasn't that lucky. I would love to have a Sharps in 45-120 or a Whitworth rifle to play with.

Well sir, I was in fact a sniper in the US Army for a number of years, and I can tell you without question that most of what you typed here is a pile of crap. If you believe anybody "verified" any kills, or that there has ever actually been a "confirmed kill", then you've been victim to the propaganda machine. If you read Hathcock's book and found him believable, you lost. That dude was created when the war became very unpopular. They have been doing this forever, think also Alvin York, Audie Murphy, and Chris Kyle. Albert F Waldron III was by all accounts a more successful sniper in Vietnam, as were several others including John Plaster (maybe), but none of them could stand in a room and tell a yarn ala Davy Crocket the way that Hatchcock could. When America needs a hero, the department of defense creates them one. He's usually a good looking "aw shucks" southern boy who can spin a yarn on demand. There is a big difference in what a civilian with an unlimited budget and sponsors and focus can accomplish today with specialized gear (think ELR), and what equipment can survive deploying into a combat zone made by the lowest bidder on the back of an individual or team of snipers, (or sharpshooters, since the prior term hasn't been in use for all of the people we are discussing). I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but Santa Claus isn't real, and neither is a confirmed kill, or most of the other crap you believe about snipers.

 

[FEENIX]

Well, is it official ...

... I guess it might as well.

 

[greenejc]

Well sir, I was in fact a sniper in the US Army for a number of years, and I can tell you without question that most of what you typed here is a pile of crap. If you believe anybody "verified" any kills, or that there has ever actually been a "confirmed kill", then you've been victim to the propaganda machine. If you read Hathcock's book and found him believable, you lost. That dude was created when the war became very unpopular. They have been doing this forever, think also Alvin York, Audie Murphy, and Chris Kyle. Albert F Waldron III was by all accounts a more successful sniper in Vietnam, as were several others including John Plaster (maybe), but none of them could stand in a room and tell a yarn ala Davy Crocket the way that Hatchcock could. When America needs a hero, the department of defense creates them one. He's usually a good looking "aw shucks" southern boy who can spin a yarn on demand. There is a big difference in what a civilian with an unlimited budget and sponsors and focus can accomplish today with specialized gear (think ELR), and what equipment can survive deploying into a combat zone made by the lowest bidder on the back of an individual or team of snipers, (or sharpshooters, since the prior term hasn't been in use for all of the people we are discussing). I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but Santa Claus isn't real, and neither is a confirmed kill, or most of the other crap you believe about snipers.

Actually, I was too. Just so you'll know. And there are probably twenty or thirty guys in this forum who knew Carlos. He was real, he had 93 confirmed kills and he made the 2500 yard shot. The Marine Corps museum also has the scope he shot through when he killed the VC sniper, and affidavits confirming his shot. SSG Waldron had the most confirmed kills in the Vietnam War. Major Plaster was Carlos' commanding officer part of his tours. However, there were a lot of men who knew Carlos, and they thought he was the real deal. I think you need to check your facts, and no, I'm not wrong about anything I wrote. As to confirmed kills, for a kill to be confirmed in Vietnam, an officer had to witness it and certify that it had happened. Confirmed kill meant it was seen by at least one commissioned officer and reported as a kill. Hathcock probably killed at least 300 men, Waldron around 400, but they didn't count unless an officer witnessed it. That's why they called it CONFIRMED. And yeah, I've helped to derail the thread. Sorry. I think the guy should get a 35 Whelen.

 

[Deleted member 115360]

Actually, I was too. Just so you'll know. And there are probably twenty or thirty guys in this forum who knew Carlos. He was real, he had 93 confirmed kills and he made the 2500 yard shot. The Marine Corps museum also has the scope he shot through when he killed the VC sniper, and affidavits confirming his shot. SSG Waldron had the most confirmed kills in the Vietnam War. Major Plaster was Carlos' commanding officer part of his tours. However, there were a lot of men who knew Carlos, and they thought he was the real deal. I think you need to check your facts, and no, I'm not wrong about anything I wrote. As to confirmed kills, for a kill to be confirmed in Vietnam, an officer had to witness it and certify that it had happened. Confirmed kill meant it was seen by at least one commissioned officer and reported as a kill. Hathcock probably killed at least 300 men, Waldron around 400, but they didn't count unless an officer witnessed it. That's why they called it CONFIRMED. And yeah, I've helped to derail the thread. Sorry. I think the guy should get a 35 Whelen.

This is me officially calling you a liar. What you just said is a pile of crap. If you want to continue this conversation, we can do it in the pm's, but I am openly calling on you to prove what you've just claimed here.

 

[FEENIX]

IBTL!

 

[greenejc]

This is me officially calling you a liar. What you just said is a pile of crap. If you want to continue this conversation, we can do it in the pm's, but I am openly calling on you to prove what you've just claimed here.

Don't have to because its all in the Marine Corps records, but you already know that.

 

[Deleted member 115360]

Don't have to because its all in the Marine Corps records, but you already know that.

The Marine corps records?

I have ample documentation to prove anything I've said. You would too if you were telling the truth. We can do this in private if you'd rather, but that is not sufficient. I stand by my claim that you are lying.

 

[Deleted member 115360]

Needless to say, there is nothing in my inbox from this fella

 

[ARlife4me]

I think this thread went 100moa at 1k. With all that being said I've been a Win mod70 fan since my dad let me shoot his '61 264wm 45 years ago. I gave 3 Savage 110s (2 300wm, 1 338lm) average cost 1,300. Can't go wrong with either of the 3. Those are the largest calibers I have. Best b-actions I've bought. I'd hate for you to buy a gun and can't find ammo.

 

[Traveling Tech]

When you stand thousands of people in parade formation, you can do amazing things with a 10 moa rifle.

When you stand thousands of people in parade formation, you can do amazing things with a 10 moa rifle.

My 1885 hi-wall in 45-70 @400yds with a browning veneer sight. Those rifles were way better than 10 min rifles.