Neck sizing and turning order (stupid question)

[Deleted member 107666]

Tons of learning going on here, thanks all for chiming in.

One last follow up. After I turn necks...seeing as how must folks prefer the expander mandrel to set final tension...if after I turn, and measure, if I choose a bushing for my FL sizing die to set .003 neck tension, could I then use an expander mandrel sized to give me .002 neck tension as the final step?

 

[Deleted member 107666]

The sizing mandrel is .001 under bullet diameter and is made of Stainless steel.
The turning mandrel is .002 smaller than the bullet diameter and is made of carbide so lube is not necessary. And after sizing with the sizing mandrel this makes for a very good fit on the turning mandrel
for precision turning.

With the old system I used to use, I had to make many different mandrels for the different thicknesses of different brands to get the best fit. The sizing mandrel eliminates this condition (I probably have close to 50 different home made mandrels in with the old RCBS neck turner.

I order the mandrels in a set of two for the calibers I need. Would like to have all calibers of them, but the cost is prohibitive.

After turning I size with bushing dies to adjust the bullet grip. Normally I will size .002 to .003 Inside diameter smaller than bullet diameter. On dangerous game bullets that are very heavy I will push it to .004 smaller than the bullet diameter.

Also to get a uniform neck to bullet tension, Turning is the best way.
After turning all cases the same(The minimum to clean up the neck)
I measure the neck thickness Times two and the bullet diameter ( Example =.014, + .014 +.308 = .336. The correct bushing should size the neck .002 or .003 thousandths smaller. Depending on spring back of the brass, some may need a different bushing to accomplish this, so I would order a bushing that would be .334 and a .333 just in case.

Hope this helps

J E CUSTOM

Is it smart/required to always account for .001 of springback when doing the math? For example, if hypothetically I got the same case neck thickness as you posted. If I wanted to set .002 back tension. Would I order .333 bushings to allow for .001 springback?

Does the same go for the expander mandrel? If expanding from say .003 to .002 final neck tension, would I use the .001 expander and assume the brass will spring back to .002?

 

[Remmy700]

That is typically why I anneal every firing to keep that spring back to a minimum. All brass will give a small amount of spring back but I see it way more in brass that has not been annealed. I run bushing and then .002 expander and it always feel nice and consistent seating.

 

[dok7mm]

Is it smart/required to always account for .001 of springback when doing the math? For example, if hypothetically I got the same case neck thickness as you posted. If I wanted to set .002 back tension. Would I order .333 bushings to allow for .001 springback?

Does the same go for the expander mandrel? If expanding from say .003 to .002 final neck tension, would I use the .001 expander and assume the brass will spring back to .002?

Using a bushing die, the spring back is away from the bullet. When you use an expander mandrel, the spring back is towards the bullet.

I'm drifting away from bushings to set neck tension. I prefer to run my brass thru a FL die with no expander and then use the mandrel to open the neck. Annealing each firing makes spring back more consistent.

 

[Remmy700]

Same here I only use bushing die now days on brass that I have neck turned and don't really have another option. I like the ol FL die with no expander followed up with mandrel!

 

[Blackdirt Cowboy]

Glad y'all brought this up. Neck turning is the next thing on my list to start doing. I learned a lot from this conversation.

 

[Remmy700]

That's funny cause I am trying to get away from it!

 

[Blackdirt Cowboy]

Why are you wanting to get away from it?

 

[Remmy700]

Man I am anal about stuff and I test everything. Now days I only run high end brass in every gun. And running mandrels I see no gains in neck turning for my style of shooting. I don't do BR or anything and mainly just shoot steel and for that purpose I have found that getting good brass, and proper prep and running mandrel, this simply works for me. But as mentioned in earlier posts it all depends on what kinda shooting u do and also what is your real world expectations. I focus more these days on getting my charges within one kernal and getting smack dab on the middle of a good node. I still do neck turn for certain guns but as said I am slowly getting away from it unless there is only lower quality brass available that reqs it or chamber that reqs it. I am trying to simplify with running just FL dies with no expander and proper bump followed my mandrels. My ol boss said "keep it simple stupid, quit over thinking crap" lol

 

[TwoMore]

Man I am anal about stuff and I test everything. Now days I only run high end brass in every gun. And running mandrels I see no gains in neck turning for my style of shooting. I don't do BR or anything and mainly just shoot steel and for that purpose I have found that getting good brass, and proper prep and running mandrel, this simply works for me. But as mentioned in earlier posts it all depends on what kinda shooting u do and also what is your real world expectations. I focus more these days on getting my charges within one kernal and getting smack dab on the middle of a good node. I still do neck turn for certain guns but as said I am slowly getting away from it unless there is only lower quality brass available that reqs it or chamber that reqs it. I am trying to simplify with running just FL dies with no expander and proper bump followed my mandrels. My ol boss said "keep it simple stupid, quit over thinking crap" lol

i wish I could run high end brass on everything I have but I am stuck with remington and Winchester on a few but I make them nice

 

[aushunter1]

I have always liked the logic of the guys down under and was raised with the same logic. Not speaking for fellow members but some like my self, like to be able to shoot to our abilities and enjoy the challenge. Long range has made me a much better shot and re loader
because the distance requires it.

Most people talk about long shots on targets but may never have a chance to shoot 1200 to 1500 yards while hunting but it is comforting to know you can If given the chance and denied the closer shot.

I much prefer 200 yard shots on game but sometimes when conditions are right and the game cant be approached any closer,
If I know I can make the shot, I will. Being prepared with an extremely accurate rifle and ammo makes the decision easier. knowing the limit of your rifle and ammo is part of it and the rest is up to the shooter and his ethics.

There is also comfort in loading the best ammo possible when making ANY shot. So don't be to hard on us anal re loaders that need every advantage we can get. Being an old target shooter, I was never satisfied with just a 10 ring bulls eye, I wanted the x ring. and the difference at 1000 yards+ was often the quality of the loading.

I consider you guys from down under, our brothers and only wish y'all could have more liberties with fire arms.

J E CUSTOM

I do not disagree with you at all JE, just merely stating a fact.

I am actually quite 'anal' about my reloading processes & want to produce the best ammo I can as well.
Whether I'm hunting game or shooting out to 1km I still prep & produce everything the same.
The reason I asked the original question is because I am about to get rid of the expanders in my bushing & standard dies & go with a mandrel for neck tension.
I only recently made enquires here at a BR supplies place about getting the mandrels for my K&M die body but at $45 each plus $45 postage it will have to wait as I would need 5 & don't have the spare coin at the moment.

I don't shoot comp but I still like to get my ammo/rifle combinations shooting around 1/2 MOA or better!

And in response to your last statement, yeh me to.
I am of the age that I was lucky enough to own quite a few semi auto's only to have them taken away 1n 1996.
Th younger generation here will not get that opportunity unfortunately unless they are a primary producer & jump through hoops to get a different class of licence.
But that's another conversation!

 

[J E Custom]

Is it smart/required to always account for .001 of springback when doing the math? For example, if hypothetically I got the same case neck thickness as you posted. If I wanted to set .002 back tension. Would I order .333 bushings to allow for .001 springback?

Does the same go for the expander mandrel? If expanding from say .003 to .002 final neck tension, would I use the .001 expander and assume the brass will spring back to .002?

It is probably the smart thing to do, but depending on the brass it may not be required. .003 is not to much (.0015 per side)as long as it is consistent. bushings are around $10.00 dollars each and normally two are plenty.

You can't assume that a .003 smaller mandrel will spring back to .002
but you can try It and adjust if you need to. Expander/sizing mandrels for neck turning are usually .001 larger than the bullet diameter for a perfect fit of the turning mandrel and should not be mistaken for sizing mandrels for neck tension.

J E CUSTOM

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

just remember your not turning to remove brass . just to equal em all around . try too keep as much material as possible

sometimes you end up dropping the cutter a little more that .014 just to have some cases left to reload though.. .0125 is about as thin as i like to go ( although a .014 skim pass that ends up at 100% cut on all brass is best )

IME .. remington brass has about 30 out of a hundred that end up getting sorted out

winchester brass has a much higher kill rate .. it has been to have to cut down to .013 sometimes just to keep enough to load a batch .. but sometimes you gotta make due with the brass you have

the norma i tried .. was very good with only having 2 out of 50 that didnt get a 100% cutt .. i used those for dummy rounds

nosler was the best brand that i have experienced when using new brass. i could have easily not turned them.. they were fine just the way they were.. BUT .the brass that came out of a box of factory nosler ammo had thinmer necks than the bew brass. once you cut one to cut em all .. all 70 came out good

point is, do alot of testing to find the highest keep rate with some that didnt make the cut .. so you know your cutting the least amount possible .. i try to pick about 10 peices and keep running the cutter down to get a feel for those 10 and stop when 2 of those 10 samples show a 90% cut ..then lock that cutter down and do the whole batch including the 10 testers

ther is minor dropping of cutter when you lock all the set screws down

 

[Deleted member 107666]

Was all set to buy K&M expand mandrels...they offer them in custom sizes for final neck tension... however. Their press adapter doesnt seem to work with a Co-Ax press (no locking not to rest in the press) could I go that route still and use the locking not off one of my redding dies?

Or are you guys using another company's expander mandrels? I see sinclair but they dont seem to make customer sizes, just a .001 and a .002 for their expand and neck turn pilot.