Neck sizing and turning order (stupid question)

[dougduey]

I prefer to Trim new brass before it has been fired, then use a expander mandrel to size the neck for the turning mandrel. This is done to prevent the unevenness in the neck wall before firing and off setting the neck. At this point I neck or full size the case for loading.
This way when the case is fired, it will be true and concentric because the chamber has uniformed everything.

Once this is done I find that my cases are very concentric. Once fired, I check for concentricity and if none (It is usually perfect) I start my accuracy loading and check each load for any run out. (This is how I check the quality of my loading process.

Note: If I use bushing dies, I remove the expander in the dies because they negate the function of the bushing by changing the sizing of the bushing and also work the brass twice instead of once.

Just the way I do it

J E CUSTOM

J E Custom, when do you turn the necks in the process(if necessary) you listed above?
I'm just starting to use mandrels and neck turn (I have the Sinclair), so looking to get the whole process down and in what order.

 

[Remmy700]

I always measure 10% of batch for base to datum line on shoulder and I pick the smallest measurement and FL size all brass to that shoulder bump measurement. Then measure 10% of the OAL lengths and trim all the brass to that shortest number. Then debur and chamfer. Now all your brass should be pretty uniform. That OAL is one of most important to pay attention to and get as perfect as you can. Once all this is done expander mandrel, turn. Then I usually will measure for correct bushing size and usually pick a bushing that gives me .003 to .004 neck tension then size with all the guts ripped out of die. Last step I run a NT mandrel through to set my necks to .002. Seems like a lot but good thing about neck turning is you only have to do it once!!

 

[TwoMore]

Remember to blow the brass out before you run a mandrel or turn it any small brass chip will wreak havoc in there and use plenty of lube

 

[Mikecr]

Just take new/unfired/unmolested cases, run the expander mandrel through necks, turn the necks to desired thickness.
Then prep cases, load, fire form, and begin your reloading cycles.
It's simple. If you have any sense of what you're doing, you won't mess it up.

Once case mouths are well within rational chamber end clearance (10thou), trim all cases to same OAL (no more than 10thou).

 

[J E Custom]

J E Custom, when do you turn the necks in the process(if necessary) you listed above?
I'm just starting to use mandrels and neck turn (I have the Sinclair), so looking to get the whole process down and in what order.

Sorry I assumed everyone would know to turn when I used the turning mandrel. I went ahead and edited my post to clear it up.

Again Sorry

J E CUSTOM

 

[aushunter1]

I prefer to Trim new brass before it has been fired, then use a expander mandrel to size the neck for the turning mandrel. I turn the case at this point and This is done to prevent the unevenness in the neck wall before firing and off setting the neck. At this point I neck or full size the case for loading.
This way when the case is fired, it will be true and concentric because the chamber has uniformed everything.

Once this is done I find that my cases are very concentric. Once fired, I check for concentricity and if none (It is usually perfect) I start my accuracy loading and check each load for any run out. (This is how I check the quality of my loading process.

Note: If I use bushing dies, I remove the expander in the dies because they negate the function of the bushing by changing the sizing of the bushing and also work the brass twice instead of once.

Just the way I do it

J E CUSTOM

Sounds like its working for you.

What size & type of mandrel are you using?
Are you after .020 or more for bullet tension??

 

[J E Custom]

Sounds like its working for you.

What size & type of mandrel are you using?
Are you after .020 or more for bullet tension??

The sizing mandrel is .001 under bullet diameter and is made of Stainless steel.
The turning mandrel is .002 smaller than the bullet diameter and is made of carbide so lube is not necessary. And after sizing with the sizing mandrel this makes for a very good fit on the turning mandrel
for precision turning.

With the old system I used to use, I had to make many different mandrels for the different thicknesses of different brands to get the best fit. The sizing mandrel eliminates this condition (I probably have close to 50 different home made mandrels in with the old RCBS neck turner.

I order the mandrels in a set of two for the calibers I need. Would like to have all calibers of them, but the cost is prohibitive.

After turning I size with bushing dies to adjust the bullet grip. Normally I will size .002 to .003 Inside diameter smaller than bullet diameter. On dangerous game bullets that are very heavy I will push it to .004 smaller than the bullet diameter.

Also to get a uniform neck to bullet tension, Turning is the best way.
After turning all cases the same(The minimum to clean up the neck)
I measure the neck thickness Times two and the bullet diameter ( Example =.014, + .014 +.308 = .336. The correct bushing should size the neck .002 or .003 thousandths smaller. Depending on spring back of the brass, some may need a different bushing to accomplish this, so I would order a bushing that would be .334 and a .333 just in case.

Hope this helps

J E CUSTOM

 

[dougduey]

Sorry I assumed everyone would know to turn when I used the turning mandrel. I went ahead and edited my post to clear it up.

Again Sorry

J E CUSTOM

Thanks for clearing that up. You do it a little differently than the others, and I know you know your stuff and I really respect your opinions, that's why I asked for clarification. Just trying to learn as much as I can in the neck turning/case neck uniformity area.

 

[Alibiiv]

I prefer to Trim new brass before it has been fired, then use a expander mandrel to size the neck for the turning mandrel. I turn the case at this point and This is done to prevent the unevenness in the neck wall before firing and off setting the neck. At this point I neck or full size the case for loading.
This way when the case is fired, it will be true and concentric because the chamber has uniformed everything.

Once this is done I find that my cases are very concentric. Once fired, I check for concentricity and if none (It is usually perfect) I start my accuracy loading and check each load for any run out. (This is how I check the quality of my loading process.

Note: If I use bushing dies, I remove the expander in the dies because they negate the function of the bushing by changing the sizing of the bushing and also work the brass twice instead of once.

Just the way I do it

J E CUSTOM

I've been fire forming .270 brass from new brass for .270AI. I have been full length resizing the brass without the expander ball, and then running the brass into a Sinclair mandrel die. It's an extra step, however my first time ever using a mandrel die, not too concerned about how the brass comes out, so not too worried whether I am shooting clover leafs or not; just trying to get some experience in with the mandrel die. The tension on the bullet seems find, the concentricity is also good. Will this method work with my finished product, or do I have to leave an expander ball in the full-length sizing die? At this time I am not planning on a bushing die. I spoke with Benn from Hornady, he said that he does not use them, and he does not see any need for them???? I am buying good brass, I have a neck turning tool, however not sure if I am going to need it.!!????? I read a lot of posts in reference to what we are discussing right now. Some of the replies seem to make sense, then information/replies starts to get opinionated, then things start to run together and get a little confusing. I have found that I am learning by doing and trying not to make senseless purchases. I have been reloading for a very long time, yet precision reloading and the various processes are new stuff, so there's a learning curve here for me.

 

[aushunter1]

I've been fire forming .270 brass from new brass for .270AI. I have been full length resizing the brass without the expander ball, and then running the brass into a Sinclair mandrel die. It's an extra step, however my first time ever using a mandrel die, not too concerned about how the brass comes out, so not too worried whether I am shooting clover leafs or not; just trying to get some experience in with the mandrel die. The tension on the bullet seems find, the concentricity is also good. Will this method work with my finished product, or do I have to leave an expander ball in the full-length sizing die? At this time I am not planning on a bushing die. I spoke with Benn from Hornady, he said that he does not use them, and he does not see any need for them???? I am buying good brass, I have a neck turning tool, however not sure if I am going to need it.!!????? I read a lot of posts in reference to what we are discussing right now. Some of the replies seem to make sense, then information/replies starts to get opinionated, then things start to run together and get a little confusing. I have found that I am learning by doing and trying not to make senseless purchases. I have been reloading for a very long time, yet precision reloading and the various processes are new stuff, so there's a learning curve here for me.

Realistically if your shooting hunting rounds then the simplest method is most often all that is needed.
In saying that you guys across the pond seem to need to shoot game out to some out stretched distances that I would call extreme here in Aus.

Imo if your hunting & shooting anything out to 200 or 300 'metres' tops then all you need is a basic die set up with a good brass preparation & load development process.

No need to over complicate things when you don't have to!

 

[J E Custom]

Realistically if your shooting hunting rounds then the simplest method is most often all that is needed.
In saying that you guys across the pond seem to need to shoot game out to some out stretched distances that I would call extreme here in Aus.

Imo if your hunting & shooting anything out to 200 or 300 'metres' tops then all you need is a basic die set up with a good brass preparation & load development process.

No need to over complicate things when you don't have to!

I have always liked the logic of the guys down under and was raised with the same logic. Not speaking for fellow members but some like my self, like to be able to shoot to our abilities and enjoy the challenge. Long range has made me a much better shot and re loader
because the distance requires it.

Most people talk about long shots on targets but may never have a chance to shoot 1200 to 1500 yards while hunting but it is comforting to know you can If given the chance and denied the closer shot.

I much prefer 200 yard shots on game but sometimes when conditions are right and the game cant be approached any closer,
If I know I can make the shot, I will. Being prepared with an extremely accurate rifle and ammo makes the decision easier. knowing the limit of your rifle and ammo is part of it and the rest is up to the shooter and his ethics.

There is also comfort in loading the best ammo possible when making ANY shot. So don't be to hard on us anal re loaders that need every advantage we can get. Being an old target shooter, I was never satisfied with just a 10 ring bulls eye, I wanted the x ring. and the difference at 1000 yards+ was often the quality of the loading.

I consider you guys from down under, our brothers and only wish y'all could have more liberties with fire arms.

J E CUSTOM

 

[TwoMore]

I have always liked the logic of the guys down under and was raised with the same logic. Not speaking for fellow members but some like my self, like to be able to shoot to our abilities and enjoy the challenge. Long range has made me a much better shot and re loader
because the distance requires it.

Most people talk about long shots on targets but may never have a chance to shoot 1200 to 1500 yards while hunting but it is comforting to know you can If given the chance and denied the closer shot.

I much prefer 200 yard shots on game but sometimes when conditions are right and the game cant be approached any closer,
If I know I can make the shot, I will. Being prepared with an extremely accurate rifle and ammo makes the decision easier. knowing the limit of your rifle and ammo is part of it and the rest is up to the shooter and his ethics.

There is also comfort in loading the best ammo possible when making ANY shot. So don't be to hard on us anal re loaders that need every advantage we can get. Being an old target shooter, I was never satisfied with just a 10 ring bulls eye, I wanted the x ring. and the difference at 1000 yards+ was often the quality of the loading.

I consider you guys from down under, our brothers and only wish y'all could have more liberties with fire arms.

J E CUSTOM

very well spoken

 

[Remmy700]

Yes very well spoken! I treat every gun the same. Whether target rifle, bench gun, hunting rifle my reloading techniques do not change. The ammunition quality will always be as good as I can make it with not only components but time with no corners cut. Only thing that will change will be perhaps type of projectile. I do not believe in MOA of deer, no matter what distance that is.

 

[J E Custom]

I've been fire forming .270 brass from new brass for .270AI. I have been full length resizing the brass without the expander ball, and then running the brass into a Sinclair mandrel die. It's an extra step, however my first time ever using a mandrel die, not too concerned about how the brass comes out, so not too worried whether I am shooting clover leafs or not; just trying to get some experience in with the mandrel die. The tension on the bullet seems find, the concentricity is also good. Will this method work with my finished product, or do I have to leave an expander ball in the full-length sizing die? At this time I am not planning on a bushing die. I spoke with Benn from Hornady, he said that he does not use them, and he does not see any need for them???? I am buying good brass, I have a neck turning tool, however not sure if I am going to need it.!!????? I read a lot of posts in reference to what we are discussing right now. Some of the replies seem to make sense, then information/replies starts to get opinionated, then things start to run together and get a little confusing. I have found that I am learning by doing and trying not to make senseless purchases. I have been reloading for a very long time, yet precision reloading and the various processes are new stuff, so there's a learning curve here for me.

In this sport and especially the Reloading part there will always be lots of different opinions. They are based on their experiences and type of shooting. I load for the type of shooting and the rifle requirements. For some applications, I simply size and load. For some I do special sizing with certain brass preps. For long distance all out accuracy loads I pull out all the stops and use every tool that makes an improvement.

Some of these tools require an understanding of their strong points and week points to benefit from using them. The fact that some don't feel like certain tools and methods are needed, is just their opinion based on their needs and patience while loading. The same Tools and/or methods are utilized to great benefit by others.

I personally don't recommend any one to just going out and buy something they don,t understand and may not be ready to use or even have the need for this stage in their loading needs and experience.

I don't believe anything I hear until I try it out my self and evaluate
it's effect on the load quality. If it improves the quality, I adopt It, if it doesn't, I forget it and move on.

Building quality rifles requires quality ammo, so if there is any way I can improve the ammo, I will. I have loaded with standard dies and methods, (Size and load) an gotten 1/2 MOA groups often but in order to get 1/10th MOA consistently takes lots more work and dedication to detail. If I can see consistent improvement difference of a few thousandths, or a fewer SD numbers, I will spend the time.

Some will say, "It's just is not worth the effort" or "I cant tell any difference" and this is just there opinion and I respect that even though I will continue to do things as well as I can. So in "MY" opinion, If I just want to hear the report of the rifle, I will just load or buy factory ammo. But if I want extremely accurate ammo I will use all of the tools needed.

Just My Opinion

J E CUSTOM