Neck sizing and case getting harder to pull out?

[jasent]

I believe Redding sells shell holders that are shorter in .001" increments and this does sound to me like what you need. Or switch to a bushing die cause the mandrel may be pulling your brass back up after bumping.

 

[Greyfox]

I think one of the issues that can be encountered are the differences between the brands of brass, ie. Winchester Brass is thinner by as much as .002" compared to Lapua. Thickness can also vary between different lots of the same brand. This does seem to have an effect on sizing behavior and dye selection. This does need to be understood initially, or when changing brands or lots. A while back, I tested a couple of my most used rifles(6.5x47L and 6.5x284 both with custom barrels, loaded to just below max pressure). I was looking for FL and NS differences in velocity, ES, accuracy, and long range POI with fire formed brass. One set, full length sized using a FL Redding bushing dye that was adjusted to setting the shoulder back .0015". These loads were compared to a second set, NS loads using the same lot of Lapua Brass using a Redding neck sizing dye with the same bushing. Neck sizing only, I would experience tight bolt close/lift after 3-4 firings. Shoulders would expand about .0015" with each firing. At 3-4 firings, the neck sized brass need to be FL length sized to restore ease of chambering. With this degree of sizing FL and NS, I could not see a material difference in accuracy velocity, ES, or brass life. My accuracy standards are<.5MOA shot accuracy and <15 FPS ES for 10 shots. As of late, I only FL size to .0015-.002" head space on a routine basis. As a side note, I have not found it neccessary to anneal Lapua Brass with these barrels. Both barrels have +1000 shots each fired.

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

...and viola...they extracted easier...I think the initial problem may have been dust from the hunt in the chamber.

so since the extraction problem is fixed, dont go down this rabbit hole .... yet . you will eventually

But now that I have the headspace comparator, it has lead me down another rabbit hole, I don't understand why my brass isn't being bumped back.

my fired brass has a headspace reading of 1.742 (3 pieces of brass), 1.741 (5 pieces of brass), 1.743 (2 pieces of brass).

1.744...now I'm scratching my head. The shell got longer???

am i missing something? how does a fired case grow from 1.741 to 1.744 after going through my die that I thought was pushing the shoulders down to make the brass headspace shorter?

when full length sizing the die squeezing the side wall of the case body , the brass has to flow/go somewhere , and the only place for it to go is up .. i suspect that is why you are seeing it grow in length (( not dragging the expander past it ))

because there is a void inside your die still (( i say that because you bottomed out a full length sizer solid on the shell hoilder )) , which is telling you that your brass has probably not grown as previously suspected (( it was assumed because of your neck sizing leads to high probability of that happening )) my guess is that your brass hasn't grown to the size of the chamber yet .

the .002 reduction , is supposed to be less chamber length depth headspace , usually your longest brass is the chamber depth, so dropping 2 thousands off of that is normal ,, BUT only if you know your cases are blown out to the full chamber size

Logically, I thought when I pull out the shell its stuck to the mandrel and is stretching on its way out...

i dont think you need to bump anything back or grind any thing yet ,

your thinking here is a possibility , so you may want to test and do the same sizing without the expander in the die .. then, compare against your previous measurements .. if you get the same measurements you havent blown out the brass enough yet , but if you do get less measurement then you are correct in your thinking of lengthening the shoulder by dragging the expander through it.

 

[Wedgy]

You may want to read up on annealing as I don't think your 2-3 seconds of torch is doing the job, and you don't need to drop them in water, just let them cool on a cookie sheet or similar.

 

[ronedog]

Ok, thanks for the help. Heres some updates from what I did today. I was curious if I could chamber my fired brass, so I put it in my gun and it chambered and didn't stick, nor was hard to push down the bolt. I was of the impression that fired brass needed to be resized, or else it would not chamber...I actually have never tried this, until I read another post. So this tells me that my brass has not blown out to the point it wouldn't chamber, therefore, there is still room for the brass to expand in the chamber, which implies that the initial sticking had more to do with the dust, or grime in the chamber, rather than the brass expanding too far. Have I got this thinking correct?

Also, I'm using Winchester Brass...I don't think I mentioned that anywhere.

2nd, I removed the decapper/mandrel from my lee FL die and ran a few shells through it. The first shell still stuck a bit when I pulled it out it out it ended up longer in the headspace. Then I thought I'd lube up the case a lot more to see if it would be smoother in and out...I use the Lee Lube (for now...but have ordered some Hornady Unique). This seemed to help and I got the shoulders to bump back. I followed the same procedures on 3 other shells and was able to get them to all read the same head space .... woo hoo, progress! Then on the 4th one, I got a reading a bit longer again, so I thought, maybe just push the lee press ram down a bit harder...then that shell read .005 too short as compared to the others, so it bumped it back too much now.

So, next question, if I'm looking for consistency in the headspace arena, it appears that using this lee press, or lee die, I have to also control the downward pressure I use on the ram with my arm. Is this correct thinking? I thought the Die would control this so any inconsistencies in my arm pressure would not matter? Thoughts on this? I'm really hoping for consistent repeatable processes. Is the Lee Die the wrong way to go? Does the Reeding Die do this too? Or have I just done something wrong that needs a bit of guidance on? Thanks.

 

[Rich Coyle]

I think I am a wannabe, but have fun.

With that said, I measure every case for headspace when sizing. I set the die to about match the headspace on a fired case by setting it barely too long. (I should mention I have not annealed this brass.) Then size a case. Usually it is too long. I turn the die about a twentieth of a turn down till I get about a thousandths of shoulder set back on a case I have not sized. Then I can expect most to come out the right length.

Occasionally one comes out too long. When that happens I turn the tie out barely and run the same case back through. I discovered if I don't turn the die out a little the second time makes the headspace on that case a couple thousandths too short. After that case I turn the die back to the mark where it was.

Any cases that come out more than .002" below headspace I use to foul the bore after it is cleaned.

The vast majority of the cases come out of the full length sizer with .000" to .001" run out on the neck. But the seated bullets have run out anywhere from .001" to .005". I don't know what to do. I guess this should be a different thread.

 

[jasent]

When seating bullets seat partially then lower ran and spin case 180. Then seat the rest of the way

 

[Wedgy]

I think I am a wannabe, but have fun. The vast majority of the cases come out of the full length sizer with .000" to .001" run out on the neck. But the seated bullets have run out anywhere from .001" to .005". I don't know what to do. I guess this should be a different thread.

The first thing I would check is your seating stem and how it contacts the bullet, if you don't have a VLD seater the bullet tip could be bottoming out before the seater contacts the bullet ogive. Also check for binding/dirt on the stem, sometimes polishing can help. Lots of things in the setup can play a role, try one thing at a time.
In my past quest for ~zero runout I found I couldn't see the difference on paper for anything less than 0.003" so that is limit, anything under that is good enough. Although it really bugs the engineer in me(dammitt).
Plenty of threads if you search on Accurate Shooter as BR guys are anal about that stuff, heck they even weigh and sort primers.

 

[ronedog]

Wedgy, you mentioned a "vld seating die". It got me thinking...and im still a noob as well, so pleas forgive, if this is basic...if im measuring the overall length of my load from the ogive, then i would assume that i would also need to seat the bullet from the ogive as well. Does the lee bullet seater seat from the ogive or the point of the bullet? Im shooting 185 gr berger vld.

 

[Wedgy]

I'm not familiar with the Lee but all the stems I know seat from the ogive. Sometimes the VLD bullets are so pointed the tip hits the base of the seater before it contacts the ogive. Just remember that all your measuring devices are measuring from more or less random point on the bullet, meaning that where your stem seats it and where your device measures it are not the same point on the bullet, but the measurement reproducible. Same with measuring your bullet to the rifling/lands; the Hornady OAL gauge measures a place on the ogive that is not exactly where your lands are.
Sorry, in a hurry, somebody will have to chime in.

http://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/126-micrometer-seat-stems-for-standard-dies

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

Does the lee bullet seater seat from the ogive or the point of the bullet?

use a sharpie or smoke a bullet to find out if that specific die does

All rifle dies are supposed to seat by pushing somewhere between the tip and the ogive , that area it about as uniform as the ogive is , so its good enough

 

[ronedog]

Thanks guys...always appreciate this forum! I did the sharpie test on the seating...looks like it marked the bullet about 1/8th or so down from the tip, so it looks like its fine for VLD bullets.

Another question came up. I've managed to get the brass bumped back with the FL sizer thanks to you guys. I have 9 pieces of brass bumped back using the Lee FL sizer and the head space measurment is now 1.741. As I was learning and applying lube, pressing harder, screwing the die in further, etc. I've ended up with 12 other pieces of brass that have headspace readings of 1.740, 1.739, 1.738, 1.735. I tried putting them into the FL sizer with no lube hoping it would lengthen them out due to sticking/resizing, but now that they've been FL sized its not having any effect.

I'm wanting to work up the the max load this gun will shoot, then figure out which powder charge groups best, then adjust the seating of the bullet. I did this about 3 years ago and ladder tested...but after what I've learned in this thread, I've learned that I have not paid enough attention to detail as I should have and I never really got the groupings I wanted. I'm looking to get .5moa if possible. So my question now is with the cases that have a head space shorter than the 1.741, can I use these to help me work up to max a powder load, or will the discrepency between the head spaces cause the powder loads to be different enough between the other 9 cases that I should only be shooting the 9 pieces that have the same head space and use the shorter ones as foulers until I can resize them back to 1.741?

Thanks.

 

[Deputy819]

ronedog,
I have a couple Lee presses that I now use ONLY as dedicated decappers and seaters. They gave me fits when using them for sizing. It was darn near impossible for me to duplicate dimensions from case to case due to the fact that the presses didnt "cam-over" AND the presses did tend to "flex" a little bit when moderate force was applied to the press-handle.
I now use only a Redding Boss press for sizing. Due to its features I found it VERY repeatable in terms of sized case dimensions.
Give Hornady One Shot case lube a try. It's an aerosol spray and I think it's much easier to use as opposed to a lube that has to be hand applied.
I would go ahead and shoot the cases that are slightly less than ideal in headspace. You gotta blow 'em back out somehow...

 

[Rich Coyle]

Make sure you give the One Shot time to dry. It is what I use.